Better Stealther Gameplay - Page 4 - PlanetSide Universe
PSU Social Facebook Twitter Twitter YouTube Steam TwitchTV
PlanetSide Universe
PSU: I have Pie. Do you have Pie?
Home Forum Chat Wiki Social AGN PS2 Stats
Notices
Go Back   PlanetSide Universe > PlanetSide Discussions > PlanetSide 2 Idea Vault

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 11 votes, 3.45 average. Display Modes
Old 2012-04-20, 06:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #46
Hypevosa
Sergeant
 
Hypevosa's Avatar
 
Re: Better Stealther Gameplay


You could have a sonar "ping" like system where hit hits them and leaves a 3d after image of where they were if they're in 100 feet. The infiltrator would get a little noise to know they've been pinged, but, as long as they've moved (and the ping system has like a 15 second cool down time) they'd be able to get away.
Hypevosa is offline  
Old 2012-04-20, 06:25 PM   [Ignore Me] #47
Gonefshn
Contributor
Major
 
Gonefshn's Avatar
 
Re: Better Stealther Gameplay


Originally Posted by Hypevosa View Post
You could have a sonar "ping" like system where hit hits them and leaves a 3d after image of where they were if they're in 100 feet. The infiltrator would get a little noise to know they've been pinged, but, as long as they've moved (and the ping system has like a 15 second cool down time) they'd be able to get away.
Sounds interesting I like the idea plus after images remind me of Goku

Might be a little intense to actually implement plus is this a device? An implant? segregated to one class?
Gonefshn is offline  
Old 2012-04-20, 07:12 PM   [Ignore Me] #48
Talek Krell
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Re: Better Stealther Gameplay


I think anyone blaming luck for having been spotted with Darklight is fooling themselves. There's no random timer on flicking darklight, nobody hit the button by accident. If somebody found you then it's because they were looking, whether it be that they were looking because you'd given yourself away or because they were simply surveying their environment.

The correct complaint would be that darklight was too common. And despite that a cloaker could sit on top of a wall tossing grenades into a base with relative impunity, I'd be inclined to agree with that assessment for PS1. For PS2 we'll have to see how it works out, but since instant kill backstabbing and cloakers with automatic rifles are both apparently in I'm not sure cloakers are going to have that much of an issue.
Talek Krell is offline  
Old 2012-04-21, 02:42 AM   [Ignore Me] #49
Hypevosa
Sergeant
 
Hypevosa's Avatar
 
Re: Better Stealther Gameplay


Originally Posted by Gonefshn View Post
Sounds interesting I like the idea plus after images remind me of Goku

Might be a little intense to actually implement plus is this a device? An implant? segregated to one class?
What I'm imagining is the player hitting a button and they see a blue sphere quickly eminate from their helmet that reveals all players around them as light blue after images that slowly fade over the period of 10 seconds. It would be entirely client side and other players wouldn't see anything but the animation for activating it.

I think it would lead to some awesome experiences for both the hunter and the hunted. How terrifying would it be to ping an infiltrator and then not know where they are, only where they were? How terrifying would it be to be pinged and completely outnumbered or outgunned and trying to escape?

With this implementation I wouldn't mind it being something all classes could use. I don't know if it would be better as a device or an implant, but the principle remains the same either way.
Hypevosa is offline  
Old 2012-04-21, 02:37 PM   [Ignore Me] #50
Gonefshn
Contributor
Major
 
Gonefshn's Avatar
 
Re: Better Stealther Gameplay


Originally Posted by Talek Krell View Post
I think anyone blaming luck for having been spotted with Darklight is fooling themselves. There's no random timer on flicking darklight, nobody hit the button by accident. If somebody found you then it's because they were looking, whether it be that they were looking because you'd given yourself away or because they were simply surveying their environment.

The correct complaint would be that darklight was too common. And despite that a cloaker could sit on top of a wall tossing grenades into a base with relative impunity, I'd be inclined to agree with that assessment for PS1. For PS2 we'll have to see how it works out, but since instant kill backstabbing and cloakers with automatic rifles are both apparently in I'm not sure cloakers are going to have that much of an issue.
I think the luck aspect of it is meant to imply that people were not just using it when they thought they may have spotted a cloaker or when they are being shot by something unseen so they turn on darklight. People were turning it on regularly at random and if they got lucky they would turn it on and find a cloaker just sitting there. I am just clarifying, to me, that is basically luck. Yes it involves player input but it is acting based on no information or assumption. I agree with you though the main problem was how common it was. There was no reason not to have it. Basically no trade off for having it. As a cloaker dealing with darklight would have been fine if only 25% of people had it. The problem was you basically had to assume they would use it.
Gonefshn is offline  
Old 2012-04-21, 05:58 PM   [Ignore Me] #51
Blackwolf
First Lieutenant
 
Blackwolf's Avatar
 
Re: Better Stealther Gameplay


Originally Posted by Warborn View Post
1. Rationale
Preemptives: Yes, I know you liked playing an infiltrator in Planetside 1. Yes, I know you got like 30 kills for every death. Yes, I know you want it to be the same as it was in the original. I am here to tell you you are wrong. Stealthers in PS1 were rarely played and when they were they were totally lame. Who started playing the game, saw invisibility suits, and thought: "Oh, sweet, I will plant automated turrets behind people and then run away as my turret kills them!" Nobody did. Everyone wanted to be a space ninja. Well guess what: This is space ninjas.
Actually that was a pretty effective freaking trick. A cloaker took out all the spawners at an AMS as well as the AMS itself just by repeatedly planting spitfires around it. All he had to do was hack the terminal for more spitfires every once in awhile, since the spawners had no DL, nothing more then standard armor, and were under fire immediately after spawning. I know this, I spawned once at that AMS before dieing and having to choose somewhere else because an outfit member reported over TS that it had been destroyed.

I myself had little luck with boomers. I had more luck picking unlikely locations and gunning people down one by one in large fights. Few people even looked in my direction since they had more pressing issues at hand, like the MAX suit standing in front of them.

Your concepts seem to be very flawed.
Blackwolf is offline  
Old 2012-04-21, 09:43 PM   [Ignore Me] #52
Raka Maru
Major
 
Raka Maru's Avatar
 


We have see-inviso flashlight attachments I PS2 now rather than DL. If these attachments can be seen for what they are (by the cloaker), then I think the balance will be good.
Raka Maru is offline  
Old 2012-04-22, 01:20 PM   [Ignore Me] #53
Talek Krell
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Re: Better Stealther Gameplay


Originally Posted by Gonefshn View Post
People were turning it on regularly at random and if they got lucky they would turn it on and find a cloaker just sitting there.
I see what you mean. To an extent it's just the downside of being an ambusher. Ambush people enough and they'll learn to expect you. I was certainly one of those people who made life hell for cloakers. I always checked DL whenever I was about to be vulnerable, or stationary, or even just about to let my guard down since that was when they were most likely to ambush me. I was often right to be suspicious.

From what I understand Raka Maru is right. Hopefully having DL be something that you have to aim at specific locations instead of just turning it on and immediately seeing everything will allow cloakers the breathing room they need to get out of sight while allowing me to continue my paranoid lifestyle.

Last edited by Talek Krell; 2012-04-22 at 01:23 PM.
Talek Krell is offline  
Old 2012-04-28, 08:38 PM   [Ignore Me] #54
Kilmoran
Staff Sergeant
 
Re: Better Stealther Gameplay


Originally Posted by Warborn View Post
1. Rationale
Cloaker gameplay in PS2 should emphasize stealth, tension, skill, and an experience very much unlike what standard infantry roles offer. PS1 cloakers were a lost opportunity, where the stealth aspect was incidental to racking up a bodycount in competition with everyone else running around on two feet. With only a few changes, PS2 infiltrators could offer unique and diverse gameplay experiences that set them apart from their PS1 predecessor and makes them a valuable part of PS2 infantry synergy.


2. The Goal
Make cloakers in Planetside 2 offer up an experience more akin to Splinter Cell, Thief, Hitman, or other stealth-action titles. Games where combat is more of a last resort, and the best players are the ones you never knew were there. However, like those games, combat should be an option, albeit one which the class is not designed to excel at but would still provide a unique challenge.


3. Planetside 1 Infiltrator Problems
a) Weak weapons. The pistols and knife were both weak and the infiltrator, appropriately flimsy when fired on, was hard-pressed to kill even an agile soldier before being gunned down. The only really reliable way to get kills was through combat engineering, which severely pigeon-holed stealthers. However, the reason getting kills was tough with pistols knives was primarily the result of...

Knife was a powerful as the bolt driver with melee booster. The weakest it got was the HSR even without it. Pistol's from point blank (at least the AMP and Scat Pistols) were perfectly lethal. Long range, Repeater and I assume beamer needed to be used a bit more tactically.

b) Excellent stealther countermeasures. Darklight was rampant because infiltrators were very frustrating if you did not otherwise have a way to detect them. Most infantry used darklight I imagine, and certainly the limited impact cloakers had was evidence of the power of this countermeasure. So while this all but ruined cloaker gameplay, it was also a necessary evil due to how unfun facing cloakers would have been.

Darklight was powerful, but hiding in plain sight, even with a cloak suit, is the best way to get caught period.

c) Lack of objectives. Bases had either the generator or the CC as their focal points, and both were very easily defended. Certainly a cloaker was all but powerless to dislodge a MAX guarding the CC, and even a single infantry with darklight would generally be more than a match. This was a problem that was an issue for the game in general, though, with the multi-hour meatgrinders trying to breach the defenses to these areas being testament to that.

I agree, though more objectives (sort of) offered themselves.. and Cloakers got creative before them learning how to sap NTU's without detection and various other tricks of the trade.

3. The Changes to Infiltrators
a) The knife would be lethal when used from behind on infantry by a cloaker. However, a couple caveats. First, backstabing enemies would decloak the infiltrator and lock them into a kill animation. The cloaker would be vulnerable during this period. The kill message displayed would be delayed by a certain period of time, perhaps that soldiers chat even muted (no longer than 30 seconds or so). The idea is to allow effective, stealthy eliminations of lone individuals but to make backstabing easily thwarted if done recklessly.

It isn't all that often when you are able to find just one guy standing by himself in seclusion in an MMOFPS. It does happen, but from knife range, it is absolutely lethal to the killer to become visible for a bit right after the assassination. That is the worst time to not be able to sneak away. Thus is disagree with this. Throw it on sniping and i'm fine with it because at least then you have range for covering your escape.

b) Pistols would have limited ammunition and their use would decloak the infiltrator for around 5 seconds or so. They would be used mainly for destroying deployables, engaging enemy cloakers at range, finishing off badly wounded enemies, or creating distractions/getting someone's attention. The idea is that if an infiltrator were to engage a healthy enemy soldier at range with their pistol, they would become open to return fire and would die very quickly to enemy assault rifle/shotgun/whatever fire. Infiltrators who want to be assassins would be better served trying to kill people with their knives.

As i said, i'm a bit better about this idea, though you seem to be saying it is a detriment compared to knifing, i suppose because knifing only has the "animation length" which to be honest... isn't something I necessarily want either but could deal with.

c) Smoke grenades. If detected cloakers would have one or two smoke grenades they could use which, when hit, would instantly create a cloud of smoke to facilitate their escape. Would need very limited use, but giving them something to make being spotted not a guaranteed death every time would be good.

Agreed, or even to help out the squad in getting in to a hot area may be a secondary use for this.

d) Infiltrators would be more visible when moving, would retain third person camera view to peer around corners undetected. Finding a balance here would be tough, but in general you want to make moving while being looked at A Bad Thing, make the gameplay revolve around stealthy movement and skillful play, but not make it either too easy to rush up to people and knife them or too hard to move anywhere without being seen and killed.

No real issue here... but that's how I play any how.

e) Hacking would be a uniquely stealth class ability. CCs could be captured by anyone, towers too, but every structure would have weak spots only stealthers could target to create interesting effects. Only cloakers could hack enemy vehicles, and either set them to self-destruct or flip them to friendly-owned.

can't faction flip vehicles, but everything else sounds fine to me.

f) Anti-infiltrator measures would be given to infiltrators. The role of infiltrators during defensive battles would be to hunt enemy infiltrators and prevent them from doing their thing. I am not yet sure what would be the best way to do it, but I keep thinking something like Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory's multiplayer would work best. Some way to detect enemy infiltrator activity, devices, etc with maybe a scanning accessory of some sort? I don't know. Either way, the idea is to promote a real sense of cat-and-mouse, where in addition to sneaking past infiltrators you have to outwit your hunters who themselves are invisible killers.

This game should have ways for everyone to participate even if the ability to do so is unequal. So while cloakers may have advantages against cloakers for what ever reason, everyone else should still have options besides the cloaker being reckless.

g) Motion sensors would be an infiltrator-only device, smaller than previously, something you could shoot at a surface maybe. Would provide radar of enemy movement for friendlies in a small area. The area has to be fairly small though -- the idea is to have effective infiltrators planting a bunch of them over a contested zone to give friendlies recon.

Sure.. this.. tagging vehicles and spotting all sound good to me. This reminds me of Metal gear Solid specifically.

h) Other recon tools. Sensor jammers that deny enemies radar but also block out motion sensor benefits, noise makers, really just some of the stuff from Sam Fisher's arsenal in the hands of infiltrators.

Noise making and such sounds cool, but i promise you that all it will do is alert people to your presence. Unlike AI who will go to it and check it out, all a person is going to do is be aware that there is a cloaker. The only type of noise maker that would be effective, is some sort of weapon or combat sounds emulator with a few choices for different situations. Then the players would have to guess as to if it was real or fake. Anything else would just be a give away and pointless.


4. Changes to the Rest of the Game
a) Every facility, tower, outpost, or whatever would have a series of panels which could be hacked by infiltrators in order to create various effects. Unlocking certain otherwise blocked access ways, turning off defensive systems like base shields, increasing spawn times slightly, restricting vehicle access, disabling other special features, etc. These would be the objectives for infiltrators. They would be many, varied, and spread all around the interior and exterior. Defenders would want to guard as many as possible, but the more impactful panels would be deeper within bases. Hacking one of these panels would create their particular effect for ~5 - 10 min or so, depending on balance/hacker skill/whatever.

Could be interesting and fun.

b) Darklight would be removed from the game entirely. Clicking a button and seeing through stealth kills the stealth gameplay. All anti-stealth features would be consolidated into the infiltrator class itself. Everyone else has to rely on sight/hearing and the like.

Once again, you don't want to make the cloaker class something outside of the scope of everyone else. Giving other cloakers and advantage is not the same as excluding the player base. If not darklight, certainly they should be able to have something. Perhaps "Audio Amp" or something similar that can be counter measured by the prepared/lucky cloaker such as is the case with "Sensor Shield" formerly "Silent Steps" i believe..

c) Hacked enemy vehicles could be set to explode after a delay as an alternative to simply switching sides.

I'd love a proximity explosion for people returning to abandoned vehicles. A little OPed if there is no way to stop it, but great. I'd even settle for it just being the proper usage of "C4" with the cloaker having to actually activate it, but something like a jammer could deactivate it and make it useless.


5. Stuff That Would Be Cool
a) Infiltrator-only access areas. Vents, hatches in rooftops, sewer-like areas, etc. Make them have small doors that can be hacked open but only an infiltrator can fit and the door seals afterward. Would allow a variety of hidden entrances to otherwise locked-down bases. Not meant to be a perfect way to evade defenses, but it's better than trying to run in front of a dozen guys guarding the main door.

More access ways that can be blocked internally by wary guards is fine with me. Obviously cloakers could anti cloaker in these areas as well. Just have to make sure that it can be defended against internally, but they have to spread forces thinner to do so.

b) Grappling hooks or something. Maybe a super-jump ability. Something to increase mobility a bit, allow better flexibility in terms of negotiating terrain to find other access points, but you wouldn't want it to compete with jetpacks much either.

Have a thread in this forum specifically about this idea.


6. The Result
Infiltrators become stealth, espionage, and sabotage specialists. They would be instrumental to weakening a base's defenses potentially without killing a single enemy. Their hacking ability would give significant penalties to a poorly defended base, while their deployables could provide useful benefits to allies. Unlike in PS1, their success would derive from their ability to move stealthily rather than their luck at not having someone flick darklight at them. On the other hand, they would be actively hunted by their enemy counterparts in a tense game of counter-espionage. While players who want a real challenge could play more of a combat role and attempt to assassinate enemy infantry with their knives, most infiltrators would find their combat ability mainly used as a last resort in order to gain access to a sensitive part of an enemy based being defended by only one or two enemy soldiers. Meanwhile, being detected would be slightly less lethal, as infiltrators would have limited escape methods to help them avoid death should they make a mistake or be uncovered by an enemy infiltrator.


Preemptives: Yes, I know you liked playing an infiltrator in Planetside 1. Yes, I know you got like 30 kills for every death. Yes, I know you want it to be the same as it was in the original. I am here to tell you you are wrong. Stealthers in PS1 were rarely played and when they were they were totally lame. Who started playing the game, saw invisibility suits, and thought: "Oh, sweet, I will plant automated turrets behind people and then run away as my turret kills them!" Nobody did. Everyone wanted to be a space ninja. Well guess what: This is space ninjas.
Spitfires take a bit to be constructed, have to be careful doing this. maxes got buffed so they can't be one shot boomered any more, so that tactic is out. Knife is deadly enough for me most times. Grenades are... useful but...slow and let everyone know you are near. I certainly never had a 30/1 K/D as a cloaker.. but rather easily 2/1 or at least 1/1 i'd say as killing wasn't what I spent my time doing.
Kilmoran is offline  
Old 2012-04-28, 08:41 PM   [Ignore Me] #55
Kilmoran
Staff Sergeant
 
Re: Better Stealther Gameplay


Originally Posted by Raka Maru View Post
We have see-inviso flashlight attachments I PS2 now rather than DL. If these attachments can be seen for what they are (by the cloaker), then I think the balance will be good.
A point based ... "spot light" style reveal for cloakers is much better than your entire field of vision being capable of seeing them. Flashlights that can uncloak... i definitely am ok with that as long as there is a down side and it can't just be left on comfortably.
Kilmoran is offline  
Old 2012-04-29, 03:57 AM   [Ignore Me] #56
Raka Maru
Major
 
Raka Maru's Avatar
 


Ok, I like the car bomb detonation hack ability described above.

If we can't jack them anymore, let us hack them to explode with trigger or when occupant starts their engine or other option (reaches 55 mph? ). The counter would be a bomb sweeping kit (or skill) for the wary. Parked unattended vehicles should become prey for cloakers.
Raka Maru is offline  
Old 2012-04-30, 02:59 AM   [Ignore Me] #57
DDSHADE
Master Sergeant
 
DDSHADE's Avatar
 
Misc Info
Re: Better Stealther Gameplay


Originally Posted by DDShade View Post
I absolutely LOVE the feel of sneaking into an enemy infested base, knowing if just ONE person flicks on DL or suspects they are being watched, it's all over for you. The suspense of that is why I love playing infiltration. I love wreaking havoc on a base from the inside out, and although it's not the same now in PS1 as it was near the start with so many noobs running around to kill... I still couldn't picture PS2 without a recon style cloaking system.
Originally Posted by Warborn View Post
Me too, except having your gameplay halted over sheer luck based on people either flicking darklight randomly at that moment or not is a lame system. I don't like gameplay being entirely dependent on randomness. Suspense is good, but the suspense should involve you taking calculated risks in the process of pursuing some objective. The suspense of whether you'll roll snake eyes or not wears out fairly quickly in my opinion.
I feel the same. Having to bet your life on whether or not someone will just chance-ably flick DL on is often not worth trying to sneak past a large group of enemies over a few minute gap. I don't think the DL system in PS1 was very good for cloaker gameplay once most players acquired all 3 implant slots. I think a similar, yet better system would be needed for PS2. Maybe drain health instead of stamina if DL is being used? Or just take 25% health at the start.

I just hope a whole new balanced system is already in place in alpha.
DDSHADE is offline  
 
  PlanetSide Universe > PlanetSide Discussions > PlanetSide 2 Idea Vault

Bookmarks

Tags
(long)

Discord

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:06 AM.

Content © 2002-2013, PlanetSide-Universe.com, All rights reserved.
PlanetSide and the SOE logo are registered trademarks of Sony Online Entertainment Inc. © 2004 Sony Online Entertainment Inc. All rights reserved.
All other trademarks or tradenames are properties of their respective owners.
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.