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Old 2012-12-21, 08:49 PM   [Ignore Me] #226
MuNrOe
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Going to re post this here as it may have been overlooked in my wall of text.

The first step is re-designing the bases with defense in mind along with non vehicular camp able spawn rooms and objectives that all link up to each other in a closed infantry only environment.

This will fix allot of the problems in the game.

As well as this

VECH job should be to push the open field battles and contain an area to PREVENT THE ENEMY FROM PULLING VECH. They should not be Camping Objectives or paths to Objectives. Or Camping Spawn rooms or Preventing the enemy from defending these objectives WHAT SO EVER.

This includes air. If the enemy wants to pull vech then they should risk taking a tank shell or liberator round to the face. Not if they are trying to defend an objective or simply walking out of their spawn room. This is whats killing defense this is the main problem not how many enemy run into a base but the defenders even standing a chance at defending the base.

You can run 10 guys out of a spawn room together to push enemy infantry off an objective heavily outnumbered. You cannot do this against tanks or aircraft because it results in instant death.

This is what PS1 had that made it worthwhile defending a base. PS2 currently lacks this and is what is missing. If people had a chance to defend a Base they would but forcing them to pull back and grab a vech each time a tank or 2 rolls into their spawn room is whats killing the fight and killing the game.

Bases should consist of the following.

Outer spawn points (Like the towers in PS1)

An outer shell (Like the walls in PS1) This is where you can defend against inbound tanks aircraft. This is where you pull your vech from and defend against the swarm of tanks/aircraft/sundys ect. (Defend the walls Defend the Vech Pad)

An Inner Objective based Capture system (CC /Gen/Spawnroom) This is where your capture point is your spawn room your generators. This area should be completely void of ANY vech and should be focused on the capture of the base. Every Objective relating to the function and Defence of the base should be back to here. This area should have multiple avenues or paths of assault so that fights do not get bogged down and the span room should have at least 3 exits into this interior that exit out to different sections of the internal base structure. This way the enemy has to lock down all 3 exits to successfully capture the base.

The generator should be close to the spawn room and the Capture Points should be closer to the Attackers entry side of the base (About half way this determines the enemy's ability to capture the point).

This is where your cloaker sneaks into and chucks a virus on the base or disables an entire wall of turrets. Your gal drop drops on and pop's the spawn generator and holds it forcing the enemy to retreat inside the base. Keep your fancy shield generators and such for the external fight, Have everything crucial to the operation of the base inside void of any vech.

I grantee you that if you implement this system in all bases then you will see large fights everywhere. You will see people defending bases. If your going to keep the hex system make it that the enemy cannot cap any bases past a base untill they have taken the base.

Last edited by MuNrOe; 2012-12-21 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 2012-12-21, 09:36 PM   [Ignore Me] #227
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


As a member of a small-ish outfit on the NC, the New Conglomerate Golden Eagles, I can honestly say that beyond more tools to communicate at a higher level (between outfits), I enjoy the way the game feels right now.

When we run our organised ops, we're normally very effective. We run one or two sunderers, rarely full, but have camped warpgates or defended outposts from forces multiple times our size. One particular fight I was very proud of was when we decided to defend Tawrich. We had about one full squad running and we decided to all go engineers with one or two medics and keep all the turrets on the tech plant operational. We ended up holding off huge tank pushes, picking off sunderers and scaring off liberators, scythes and galaxies with no assistance from the massive zerg outfit that was farming at the tech plant. We won that fight.

We get frustrated occasionally because we really do need larger numbers in some fights but a lot of the time, that's because we're throwing ourselves at the enemy zerg and getting destroyed. I feel like we make a difference when we play smart.

There are a few ways that small outfits' effectiveness could be improved. The tech plant is a good example because you can teleport from the spawn room to the main facility and then teleport or use the elevators to get to the turret platform. That's a nice way for a small force to do a lot (there's a lot of firepower up there that's easy to defend thanks to the proximity of all the turrets to each other and the protection from air to ground attacks).

I don't really know how to improve things on the attacking side with the current capture mechanics. For the large facilities that have many capture points, you have to divide your force to capture it quickly so those are a numbers game. The smaller facilities normally aren't a problem because it's rare to find a large force defending a small facility. Bio labs can sometimes be taken with a small force if you max crash it or are lucky enough to find a gap in the defense but usually, the teleporter rooms are camped and the landing pads are a massive farm.

In terms of metagame, it'd be cool to see what outfits are currently on a continent or maybe a leaderboard of sorts for outfits. As a small outfit, we feel like we don't get noticed a lot because we normally aren't in the meat-grinder where everyone else is (though we always seem to have the 666 show up just after we secure a place. They must recognize the name by now). It'd be cool to see a list of outfits on and maybe what their current platoon(s) waypoint(s) are. Maybe a checkbox where you can choose to see the waypoints of other outfits.
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Old 2012-12-21, 09:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #228
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by ThisGuy View Post
The tech plant is a good example because you can teleport from the spawn room to the main facility...
...They took that out...
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Old 2012-12-22, 01:08 AM   [Ignore Me] #229
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Whiteagle View Post
...They took that out...
Once again because smart players were farming stupid ones with it... we are apparently not allowed to farm idiots. Instead we have to swarm undefended bases with vehicles and pretend we're doing something...

You don't even have to add hack and hold back in the game. Just allow defenders who flip all the points back simultaneously to reset the base cap; it'd at least open the possibility of fast resecures.

Edit: A thing about zergfits: I don't care if you think you're tactical and organized. It simply doesn't matter... the game's organizational and tactical requirements stop at "bring all your numbers to converge on a small area" and "bring flak and aircraft". Nothing else has any bearing on an empire's success in a fight. You're winning with numbers, not with organization, because organization really doesn't have any significant effect.
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Old 2012-12-22, 02:15 AM   [Ignore Me] #230
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


I think a matter of perspective is barring progress on this discussion.

Instead of wording it as a problem with the effectiveness of throwing numbers at locations. We need to look at it as an issue with the inability to actually use small numbers effectively or hamper attacks on a wide number of outposts - Of a limiting and bland meta-game that tosses players into the same locations or a very limited room for targets and creativity.


I really liked what someone said earlier (pointman) that there needs to be room for the players to really develop the metagame with tools available. Right now our tools are points along the frontlines and satellites or side objectives that only effect that base.
any mechanic needs to be developed with the fact that players are infinitely more clever than a set of developers ever can be, and if it can be gamed, it will be, in ways the developers don't intend or simply never thought of. So instead of creating mechanics, create a set of tools for players, and let us figure it out.

You can be useful with small numbers but only in a "cool they had to send an entire platoon to take out half a squad." There's some creative things that can be done too but doing this isn't tangible.

Did you trick them into sending a large force to where there is little? Yes, and they're already moving somewhere else since finishing a defense gives no reward and that territory was probably the only empty one on the entire front.

Honestly though unless you consciously make an effort to make an AA net it only takes a couple liberators or rocket pads to shutdown almost every outpost. Which is fine, I'd be more ok with it if more territories weren't completely open to air.

There's been many excellent posts on ways to implement better strategic or tactical assets and I'm sure the developers can think of a few too. But right now the game is almost nothing but a movement to contact mission with no variable. The lack of diversity effects everyone and makes the game less fun.

tl;dr- Forcing 3x or more your own numbers to push you away is awesome but boring and provides nothing more than self-satisfaction.

I want more ways to be annoying to the enemy and more room for creativity.
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Old 2012-12-22, 04:10 AM   [Ignore Me] #231
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Made a thread about this a little while ago. Even had one at the start o beta.

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...o-place.68243/
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Old 2012-12-22, 04:23 AM   [Ignore Me] #232
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


there needs to be a serious discussion between the devs on how to fix the base design cause bases should be designed with defence in mind no army or country would ever build something like the amp stations or tech plants in such an easily attacked and taken over manner they would be made as fortresses due to their stratigic value.
Bio labs are the bench mark for defensabilty atm tanks play their part to a point and then its down to the infantry. the new conts need to be the ones the new bases hit then go through the continents fixing the bases to make the spawns somewhere that cant just be farmed by 10 mossys and 5 prowlers while they wait for the base to flip.
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Old 2012-12-22, 05:29 AM   [Ignore Me] #233
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Hamma View Post
I had a great discussion on Twitter last night about this and wanted to bring it here.

First off let me start this thread by saying this is NOT an attack on specific outfits. I will not allow people to argue about specific outfits, this discussion is about the size of outfits in general and whether or not you think they hurt the game. Also, I don't want to hear bs like "ohh you're doing it wrong" etc.

This has bothered me since late beta and is becoming more and more of an issue (imo) as of late. I don't have solution for it because there really isn't one but I want to see what peoples thoughts are.

My outfit is smaller in size compared to most. We typically run about a half a platoon or so. We are finding it difficult to find a solid role for us in the game that isn't boring and doesn't involve getting steamrolled. This is becoming more and more difficult as time goes on. Huge outfits are able to put 100 or more people or more on an objective and essentially win with numbers in almost all fights. We are able to hold off, but it's simply a matter of time until we are struck down due to sheer numbers.

Smaller outfits are finding that they have to disband and join larger outfits if they want to even have fun, causing them to lose their own identity and be absorbed into massive teams because there are no recruits left to take. For me community is more important to a game than the game itself, hence why I've been doing this all these years.

Is having one massive outfit per empire what the developers intended? Is spam inviting every no outfit person in the game really a viable recruiting effort? How many of these people even know what they are joining?

What is everyones thoughts on this issue?
This probably has already been said a few times but a great one is to form outfit alliances with others, share your VOIP and coordinate operations together, you don't become a massive outfit and can retain your individual identity.
B.R.T.D. has been sharing space with loads of other excellent TR outfits for years. We just work together for a greater goal.
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Old 2012-12-22, 05:34 AM   [Ignore Me] #234
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Pella View Post
Made a thread about this a little while ago. Even had one at the start o beta.

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/i...o-place.68243/
Yep. Since then they've responded by adding in barriers within the large bases and around the outposts, but these are really sticking plasters and haven't fundamentally changed anything.

And the latest change they did to the tech plant was really bizarre.
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Old 2012-12-22, 05:39 AM   [Ignore Me] #235
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by ringring View Post
and this is not about Devildogs, there's no need to be so defensive.
Precisely! noone has mentioned the devil dogs or any other zergfit for that matter. If people would take the time to read the posts here they would realise that the issue is more to do with the game.
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Old 2012-12-22, 06:03 AM   [Ignore Me] #236
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by GreatMazinkaise View Post
Once again because smart players were farming stupid ones with it... we are apparently not allowed to farm idiots. Instead we have to swarm undefended bases with vehicles and pretend we're doing something...
Well to be fair the Spawns in this game are designed to induce stupidity...

I mean, opaque boxes with no window, with the only outside visibility provided by the few small exits whose shields are the ONLY protection you are given...

Originally Posted by Myself View Post
...I feel we should probably focus on more immediate means of strengthening bases...

...Namely, replacing those deathtrap sardine cans that are small spawn buildings!

Let's face it, they are probably the worst offenders when it comes to camping, offering no real protection against enemy forces while simultaneously being more of a hindrance to defense then an asset.

A couple of days ago, an idea thread on "fortifications" got me thinking about Platoon Leaders having access to deployable Spawn Buildings...

Now the viability of such a concept is debatable, but it did lead me to a small spawn building design that would be a VAST improvement over the current boxes.

It would be a mushroom-shaped structure, a squat tower from which the base can be defended from.

The trunk of the building itself has no entrances, just a set of two spawn tubes, equipment terminals, and a shielded elevator for going to and from the second floor.
The second floor itself would be an octangular arrangement of bastions and machicolations, roofed in such a way that only the outermost lips of the bastions would be open to overhead bombardment.
This would allow the spawn building itself to be used as a defensive hard-point as well as providing defenders four potential sheltered exits down through the machicolations...

...The only downside is that Light Assaults will be the only ones able to get back INTO the spawn after dropping, but this could be partially alleviated by external equipment terminals...

Thoughts?
I originally discarded the notion of putting exits on the trunks of my Alamo Mushrooms in order to keep the small floor design from being to cluttered and/or the possibility of high explosive spam still being able to harm those inside, but I'm now wondering if they shouldn't have a couple just so you can see what's going on outside...

Originally Posted by GreatMazinkaise View Post
You don't even have to add hack and hold back in the game. Just allow defenders who flip all the points back simultaneously to reset the base cap; it'd at least open the possibility of fast resecures.
This would be a great idea, since it's rather frustrating to try and save a base at the last minute only for it to fall because the other guys just kept throwing a trickle of Zerg at it.

Originally Posted by GreatMazinkaise View Post
Edit: A thing about zergfits: I don't care if you think you're tactical and organized. It simply doesn't matter... the game's organizational and tactical requirements stop at "bring all your numbers to converge on a small area" and "bring flak and aircraft". Nothing else has any bearing on an empire's success in a fight. You're winning with numbers, not with organization, because organization really doesn't have any significant effect.
Mhhhh... Yeah, he's got a point...

I mean, even if you are seperating your squads and coordinating your efforts, right now you're doing little more then spreading your numarical advantage around instead of clumping it together.
I'd hate to call you a Zergfit though, just because you are still better then CERTAIN PEOPLE who uses their "Outfit" as a means of herding their entire Faction on a single point...

Originally Posted by Graywolves View Post
I think a matter of perspective is barring progress on this discussion.

Instead of wording it as a problem with the effectiveness of throwing numbers at locations. We need to look at it as an issue with the inability to actually use small numbers effectively or hamper attacks on a wide number of outposts - Of a limiting and bland meta-game that tosses players into the same locations or a very limited room for targets and creativity.
Very true, one could hope that a true Inter-Continental meta-game would help this; spreading each Faction's Zerg over large enough fronts that single coordinated squads could do things to create effective dents in the line, but more should probably be done to improve the meta-game anyways.

Originally Posted by Graywolves View Post
I really liked what someone said earlier (pointman) that there needs to be room for the players to really develop the metagame with tools available. Right now our tools are points along the frontlines and satellites or side objectives that only effect that base.
Indeed this might be an issue due to every Continent having a foothold for every Faction, resulting in each of them constantly banging at each-others front doors, but could more meta-game improvements really hurt?

Originally Posted by Graywolves View Post
You can be useful with small numbers but only in a "cool they had to send an entire platoon to take out half a squad." There's some creative things that can be done too but doing this isn't tangible.
Yeah, an Infiltration Squad should be softening up targets through hacking, but that's rather pointless when the enemy doesn't even get a chance to leave their spawn building...

Originally Posted by Graywolves View Post
Did you trick them into sending a large force to where there is little? Yes, and they're already moving somewhere else since finishing a defense gives no reward and that territory was probably the only empty one on the entire front.
I've hated this issue since Beta, no one bothers to stand guard at a fucking military base!

Originally Posted by Graywolves View Post
Honestly though unless you consciously make an effort to make an AA net it only takes a couple liberators or rocket pads to shutdown almost every outpost. Which is fine, I'd be more ok with it if more territories weren't completely open to air.
Yeah, this is what I had in mind when coming up with the Alamo Mushrooms; yes they can be overwhelmed by a large enough force of Tanks or Aircraft, but they are at least a miniature keep from which Infantry can actually put up a fight from.
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Old 2012-12-22, 09:13 AM   [Ignore Me] #237
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Malorn View Post

* Do resources need a bigger role? (in theory, a small outfit can better do resource denial with small territories)
* Does territory capture need to be slowed down to allow for response, regrouping, and to wear down a zerg?
* Does defense need to be more rewarding XP-wise?
* Do vehicles need to cost more resources to help reduce spam?
* Do deployment options need to be reduced to encourage more natural concentration of force? (I'm thinking PS1 here where you had 3-4 options on where to spawn and it kept forces together so you weren't steamrolled as much and opened up opportunity for small outfits to avoid the concentrations)

1. Right now, resources are eighter completly useless (you get to much to really care), or just annoying as fuck (you dont get enough to do anything. Depens fully on the capture status of the continent your on.
I think the whole "you get X resources for this territory per tick" system just doesnt work. It rewards the empire that is doing good a lot, while punishing the empire that is doing bad. Now, thing is, the empire that is getting pushed back usually just lost a bunch of vehicles in the process of being pushed back. Now they also get less resources. At some point, they cant even defend anymore, and just get steamrolled. No idea how to fix that tho, any idea i come up with breaks right away. :/

2. Yes, absolutly. The whole capture mechanic right now needs to change. A Flat out timer a la hack and hold is likley the solution. It gives everyone a clear idea about how long they got time to get a resecure going, rather than having a completly random ticker. Seen Buzz yell quite loud once on the stream about that, as a outpost you guys tried to defend flipped within seconds, way to fast to mount any attempt to resecure.
So, Hack and hold, please. The more surrounding territory you own, the lower the time needed to hold the hack. But, once the hack is on, the time doesnt change, even if surrounding territorys flip owner.
Should work well for Techplants and Amp stations, as they need a resecure from the outside, rather than a push from the inside like biolabs.


3. The defense XP bonus is good, but people dont realize that its there. So, it needs to be more obvious that you get a bonus for defending.
Maybe, instead of giving the bonus to all XP right away, save it up to give it out whenever a defence is over (whenever you leave the territory / loose the base / dont get any XP for x Minutes while still in the territory). People would still get exactly the same, but it would be more obvious to them what they get.
I bet after such a change, people would yell that they now get to much XP for defending.

4. No. Thats not helping to fix the problem, it just annoys people. A vehicle zerg only exists for a short amount of time, till it gets taken out. Usually, people then dont just jump into tanks right away again, but instead spawn at the nearest AMS.
What we need are more effective ways to slow down a vehicle zerg. More CE tools maybe. I would suggest a drastic change to mines: Cut the damage down to 25%, up the amount of Mines Engineers carry around. The idea is to create big minefields again that dont kill vehicles right away, but hinder their movement. Well placed minefields could then work quite well together with HA and Tanks to quickly take out a vehicle zerg.
Also, maybe nerf The standard guns infantary Damage. If infantary has a better chance against Tanks, the whole issue may go away completly.

5. Yes. Closest 2-3 AMS within 500M (to avoid the AMS hopping that happens quite often), Closest Outpost, closest Place to spawn big vehicles. Thats it.
Prevent people from spawn hopping around, and you should be good.
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Old 2012-12-22, 12:03 PM   [Ignore Me] #238
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Tatwi View Post
I agree, that covered everything i had to say.

Since beta I wondered why SOE never made use of the underground doorway art assets to lead into actaul underground facilities. Ti Alloys could connect to The Crown, Crossroads, and Zurvan, with some interesting facilities and capture points underground as well as paths to move troops on foot to different locations. I posted this months ago -they could even have environmental barrier, like gas leaks, that can be caused and repaired by any side, as ways to effect traffic though the tunnels (and that sort of thing).

Side note, I was sad to see KrakenOne, a fellow SWG vet, being such a douche. "go play something else", is not a valid statement to make towards Hamma or the good majority of people who post here. PSU is where those who have been invested in the franchise for years go to talk. If they don't like something, that something is wrong. Many others will come and go, but the PSU community will remain the integral core of PS2, so given their experience in PS1, their staying power, qne their open pocket books, it would be wise to take their feedback to heart, even if it does not make sense to you. Simply put, PSU knows better.
PSU does not know better, that is ridiculous statement. They know better what they alone prefer. I've met them, talked to them heard them have conversations, we have a different view of what fun is. I'm cool with that and understand in an MMO what is fun for some won't be for others.

In SWG I was never for limiting guilds or even having instances in anyway shape or form that limited the number of participants. I play online MMOs for the MASSIVE part. It is the persistent maps and the MASSIVE part of PS2 that got me here, my first shooter ever. All I did was research FPS and relay that there are two titles out there that limit the size of the team/group/guild; therefor there would be no large outfit for small outfits to have to worry about or interfere with them.

I'd much rather have seen this titled how to make small outfits more effective and the thread be about tools or mechanics that can be implemented to enhance small group play in a game designed, packaged and sold as a massive all out war.

I also look at PS1 peeps as the prepatch 7 Jedi in SWG, all they did was post and lament on what they lost. Rarely if ever did they do anything to move the existing product forward or improve anyone's game play. Were some of them valuable, hell yes; Badger, RedDwarf, Onyx to list a few. Thing is PS1 is still here.

We are not playing PS1 it is a different game, we are playing PS2.

Quite honestly I wish no one told me about this thread. You'll fine these are my only posts on these boards outside of our recruitment thread, and will most likely be my last. I've posted three times and the attack or insult has been left each time. Point in case this post, and I fully expect more insults and flat out falsehoods to be posted in response to this post.

Additionally, the only reason I came back to this thread is someone said PG thinks we have an issue with them in this thread; this is utterly not true. If there is an issue all they have to do is talk to myself, Acidfire or PIG. I'm unaware of any issue.
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Old 2012-12-22, 12:09 PM   [Ignore Me] #239
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by p0intman View Post
I want to smack you upside your head for your hubris. We tried being cooperative with your outfit, but we got shat on instead by your leaders. So you know what we did? We said fuck that.
I've never interacted with you until your insults here.

No idea who you are or who you think you contacted. Feel free to PM me on the PS2 boards any TS information you want and I'll hear your issue. I've seen the PG peeps about on Connery, and fought at the same points, never seen an issue.

Last edited by Kracken; 2012-12-22 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 2012-12-22, 12:26 PM   [Ignore Me] #240
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


It's all about respect. This thread was started by the site admin to talk about the elephant in the room that is hurting the game. You came in here acting like the big man on campus who knows better, suggesting some insulting garbage (go play a different game) and then got butt hurt when people called you on it. Mistakes happen, but you have to own up to them, Kracken. Hamma gave you a pass, which I hope you appreciate.

The people here are the people who kept the Planetside franchise alive enough to deserve a second game to be made. Show some respect.
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