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Old 2011-07-15, 02:38 PM   [Ignore Me] #1
Volw
First Sergeant
 
Suppressive fire


Suppresive Fire
v.1 | 15/07



Firstly, let me start by describing what it is and how it is used in real life.



What is suppressive fire?

I believe the quote below describes it sufficiently:

“fire that degrades the performance of a target below the level needed to fulfill its mission. Suppression is usually only effective for the duration of the fire.


How is it used?

Without going too much into details. Modern squad/sections are divided into two fire teams and when assaulting enemy positions:

- one fireteam suppressing the enemy by firing an excessive amount of bullets at the target. People in real life don't re-spawn and will usually seek cover

- second fireteam is flanking and assaulting the target (in the UK - with bayonets!)

This is also known as 'fire and manoeuvre'.



Why do we need it in PlanetSide2?

It would greatly enhance gameplay by changing battle dynamic and providing greater benefits to players employing strategy, instead of mindlessly zerging forward. It should also come at - I believe - a low development cost.



How to implement it to PlanetSide2?

Below is a quantitative representation of what could be described as 'blurry vision'. Also, similar system is used by the only MilSim on the market - Arma2. It will also be implemented in BF3.

It should be pretty simple to implement and not require any major development time as it's a simple de-buff.
  • ~3m AOE de-buff applied by infantry heavy weapons, such as MCG* for 2-3 second duration:
  • 5% accuracy debuff vs infantry (allowing to retreat or displace quickly)
  • 5% movement and RoF debuff vs MAX units (allowing to fire back, but at decreased speed)

It should also stack with other players up to a maximum of 20%-25%. (For example: one players can only cause 5% acc debuff, with 2 players 'suppressing' it goes up to 10% etc.)

It's not a massive amount, but should be enough to suppress the enemy and degrade their performance.

It could use special ammunition consisting of tracers only to give a visual cue to both friendly and enemy units.

It's obviously possible to expand it to other weapons. However, then it could potentially end up being overpowered, as it would cause a 'who fires first - wins' effect and it is certainly not the intent.

It could also be used by APC style vehicles, like Deliverer, to support the advance.

*Best if it's a common pool weapon/vehicle. Hard to say at this stage what will be in game.



Potential usage:
  • suppressing enemy snipers, bunkers and other entrenched positions
  • ambushing enemy
  • countering infantry zerg heading from one direction


Counters:
  • Aura around commander lowering the effect by half OR
  • a clickable skill which would remove the suppression effect for a limited time, allowing to break through bottlenecked areas (think backdoor area in PS1).

    ~6m PBAoE
    10 second duration
    1 minute cooldown
    45 second de-buff on all affected preventing it from being re-applied



Balancing factors:
  • It requires a lot of ammunition to maintain and wears off quickly
  • I'd imagine the person trying to suppress would immediately become target number one, especially with 100% tracer rounds


----

Obviously, exact numbers are up for a debate if this is implemented, so I'd like you to focus on discussing the idea itself.

Last edited by Volw; 2011-07-18 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 2011-07-15, 02:43 PM   [Ignore Me] #2
Bags
Lieutenant General
 
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Re: Suppressive fire


Wait, you want me firing randomly at enemies to lower their accuracy? Or did I read that wrong? I dunno, I just don't feel like it adds anything fun to the game. When I hear suppressing fire I certainly don't think fun.
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Old 2011-07-15, 02:54 PM   [Ignore Me] #3
Volw
First Sergeant
 
Re: Suppressive fire


Pretty much, yeah.

The 'fun' aspect of it is that it makes firing at an enemy in cover a bit more usable, instead of waiting for him to expose himself.

Also adds a bit of strategy to both defensive and offensive play, instead of blobbing the enemy.
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Old 2011-07-15, 02:56 PM   [Ignore Me] #4
Tikuto
Major
 
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Re: Suppressive fire


I tend to use suppressive fire alot in Brink. Just shooting without a target. Just around the target that has taken cover. Works often. Just shoot and watch them stay under cover.

Squad Stances
With squad Captains as a leadership class in-mind, squad leaders could change the stance of their squad.
  • There could be a selection of different default and advanced Stances that a squad leader can use for their team.
    • Defensive Stance: Enemy's vision receives a more intimidating shock from this squad's fire. Supports suppressive fire. (no statistical alterations)
    • Offensive Stance: something.
    • Supportive Stance(adv.): something.
    • Other Stance(adv.): something.
    • Other Stance(adv.): something.

Last edited by Tikuto; 2011-07-15 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 2011-07-15, 02:58 PM   [Ignore Me] #5
Firefly
Contributor
Major General
 
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Re: Suppressive fire


I don't see why we need an actual mechanic or function for this in the game. It can already be done with what exists.

Example:
Yellow Squad has ten people. They encounter some dug-in infantry with heavy weapons. Even numbers manoeuvre, odd numbers remain in place and lay down enough fire that the bad guys either get shot, get down, or get gone. Meanwhile, even numbers are moving around to flank.
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Old 2011-07-15, 02:59 PM   [Ignore Me] #6
Bags
Lieutenant General
 
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Re: Suppressive fire


Originally Posted by Volw View Post
Pretty much, yeah.

The 'fun' aspect of it is that it makes firing at an enemy in cover a bit more usable, instead of waiting for him to expose himself.

Also adds a bit of strategy to both defensive and offensive play, instead of blobbing the enemy.
You can already lay down suppressive fire. Developing a weird, unintuitive system for it seems like a waste of time.
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Old 2011-07-15, 03:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #7
kaffis
Contributor
Major
 
Re: Suppressive fire


Originally Posted by Bags View Post
You can already lay down suppressive fire. Developing a weird, unintuitive system for it seems like a waste of time.
You can lay down suppressing fire, but the effect is greatly reduced because players in video games don't behave rationally when it comes to self-risk.

They respawn, after all.

That's why people occasionally try to come up with weird systems (that they try to make intuitive, at least, with success or failure based on the individual solution) to create a specific mechanic for it, to compensate for the irrationality of the targets' "I'll just respawn in 15 seconds if this doesn't work" behavior.
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Old 2011-07-15, 03:48 PM   [Ignore Me] #8
Carver
Corporal
 
Re: Suppressive fire


I like the concept but that all seems overly complicated. I think it would be cool if when bullets are landing right next to you or whizzing just over your head (or actually hitting your for that matter) your accuracy would be decreased. This could be something you could counter-act to some degree with skills/upgrades/etc if you wanted to.
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Old 2011-07-15, 03:51 PM   [Ignore Me] #9
Tool
Master Sergeant
 
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Re: Suppressive fire


Originally Posted by kaffis View Post
You can lay down suppressing fire, but the effect is greatly reduced because players in video games don't behave rationally when it comes to self-risk.

They respawn, after all.

That's why people occasionally try to come up with weird systems (that they try to make intuitive, at least, with success or failure based on the individual solution) to create a specific mechanic for it, to compensate for the irrationality of the targets' "I'll just respawn in 15 seconds if this doesn't work" behavior.
Yes, that lack of self-preservation in games drives those desires of developers to develop some mechanic for suppresive fire.

I know ARMA has a reduced accuracy effect, Battlefield 3 is going to use a similar effect with assistance points given for effective suppression, I'm fairly certain there's a system in place as well for the next installment of Ghost Recon.
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Old 2011-07-15, 03:51 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
Volw
First Sergeant
 
Re: Suppressive fire


Similar system is used in Arma2, which is a sim, after all.
(Sure, it's lacking in some areas but there's nothing better out there)

I'd also say it's pretty intuitive. I doubt you'd be able to hold steady aim while being pounded by HMG/LMG and a hulk of armor MAXes are would certainly be slowed down.



Currently, suppressing does not work against snipers at all, due to damage drop-off which allows to shoot -> crouch -> reload -> stand-up -> shoot -> repeat while you tickle him with MA. Going to be even more difficult with OSOK.

Also, even if suppressing enemy behind cover, it doesn't exactly stop them from engaging the manoeuvring section, while maintaining the benefit of having hard cover. Unless you circle around them, which takes a while.

Most of the time it ends up with either grenade spam or pure lolzerg, however.
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Old 2011-07-15, 03:53 PM   [Ignore Me] #11
basti
Brigadier General
 
Misc Info
Re: Suppressive fire


This is just a artificial mechanic that is completly unnessesary. Just shoot at the enemy, its that simple. Using such a mechanic in a classic Point and click MMO with guns would make sense, but this is a FPS without "press button one to activate the skill".
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Old 2011-07-15, 03:55 PM   [Ignore Me] #12
Volw
First Sergeant
 
Re: Suppressive fire


Originally Posted by Carver View Post
I like the concept but that all seems overly complicated. I think it would be cool if when bullets are landing right next to you or whizzing just over your head (or actually hitting your for that matter) your accuracy would be decreased. This could be something you could counter-act to some degree with skills/upgrades/etc if you wanted to.
Yep, this is what I propose. Wrote it in a slightly over-detailed way, as essentially that's how it would need to look like for developer / programmer to implement.

There needs to be accuracy decrease value and range it affects, it's all there ;-)
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Old 2011-07-15, 04:01 PM   [Ignore Me] #13
Volw
First Sergeant
 
Re: Suppressive fire


Originally Posted by basti View Post
This is just a artificial mechanic that is completly unnessesary. Just shoot at the enemy, its that simple. Using such a mechanic in a classic Point and click MMO with guns would make sense, but this is a FPS without "press button one to activate the skill".
Didn't know Arma2 or BF3 were point and click MMOs

I'm proposing 5% to make it minor enough without any silly skillbars.

Typically, if you shoot a lot of pointy led objects at someone it should have an effect on them besides purely MMO based damage value.

You shouldn't sit behind cover and think - oh if I stick my head outside, I will get hit for 20HP, but I can hit the enemy for 80HP with my sniper rifle!
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Old 2011-07-15, 04:53 PM   [Ignore Me] #14
DviddLeff
Lieutenant Colonel
 
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Re: Suppressive fire


I really do not want to see debuffs/buffs in game at all.

Suppressing fire needs to be a simple thing; you get shot at; you keep in cover.

Does it work in PS already? Yes, however mainly with vehicles against infantry as infantry cannot carry enough ammo to do it effectively.

How will PS2 do it better? Decreased TTK will make players stick to cover a lot more, and head shots will make them keep their heads down. Also the lack of third person will make suppressive fire much more useful; they won't be able to see the fire team flanking them as they hide.

One thing I do want to see in PS2 to make this in particular a more useful tactic is to add a proper machine gun, a deployable weapon which has a high rate of fire and damage, but not the most accurate weapon. This would leave the user stationary and vulnerable to fire until they pick up the weapon.
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Old 2011-07-15, 05:17 PM   [Ignore Me] #15
Volw
First Sergeant
 
Re: Suppressive fire


Originally Posted by DviddLeff View Post
I really do not want to see debuffs/buffs in game at all.
PS1 has plasma nades and implants.

Also, crouching is in fact a buff - +acc; -cof;

What I provided is a feature with quantitative values attached to it. I could have just as well written 'when being shot by LMGs you vision's getting blurry!'. Same effect.

How will PS2 do it better? Decreased TTK will make players stick to cover a lot more, and head shots will make them keep their heads down. Also the lack of third person will make suppressive fire much more useful; they won't be able to see the fire team flanking them as they hide.
All I'm going to say - good luck 'suppressing' snipers who can OSOK and HS them with a weapon w/o a scope, considering recoil and drop-off will be close to impossible.
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