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Old 2012-06-22, 09:24 AM   [Ignore Me] #16
Kriegson
Master Sergeant
 
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Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


I have to disagree here. As people have said, friendly fire. How are you supposed to tell a disguised infiltrator apart from a retarded greifer apart from an inexperienced player who simply reacted without thinking?

Especially when firing back on said person can cause the anti-greif system to potentially ban you?

Also, it seems a little complex a mechanic for a game that is supposed to be fast paced and relatively simple in regards to target determination, what with the big flamboyant colors and easily identifiable outlines.
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Old 2012-06-22, 09:31 AM   [Ignore Me] #17
TeaLeaf
Corporal
 
Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


Originally Posted by Goku View Post
How long are we talking here to see if that player is a spy by doing pointing your gun at them?
Should probably scale with distance. So maybe 6 or so seconds at 200m, scaling down to 1 or 2 seconds face to face. I don't think it should throw the disguise off though, just show a symbol on the inspecting players screen.
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Old 2012-06-22, 09:32 AM   [Ignore Me] #18
Bazilx
First Sergeant
 
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Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


Originally Posted by TeaLeaf View Post
Should probably scale with distance. So maybe 6 or so seconds at 200m, scaling down to 1 or 2 seconds face to face. I don't think it should throw the disguise off though, just show a symbol on the inspecting players screen.
I think an average of around 3 seconds is fair, roughly the amount of time you'd expect someone to look at someone and realize their badge is on the wrong side :P Nobody is going to want to have to stare at people for 6 seconds, realistic or not.

Seeing as how you could technically in those 3 seconds realize you are about to be shot - and open fire on the person staring at you - shooting should instantly break the disguise.

Originally Posted by Kriegson View Post
Also, it seems a little complex a mechanic for a game that is supposed to be fast paced and relatively simple.
In my opinion more complex mechanics are a welcome sight.

Originally Posted by Kriegson View Post
what with the big flamboyant colors and easily identifiable outlines.
Yep, it only works in TF2 because it has such muted and non-flamboyant colours.

Last edited by Bazilx; 2012-06-22 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 2012-06-22, 09:37 AM   [Ignore Me] #19
MrMorton
Sergeant
 
Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


the real question is, what is the gameplay benefit of being able to disguise.

in TF2, the spy disguise adds to the gameplay as a way to approach your victim, as you cannot attack while cloaked.

However in PS2 you can attack straight from a cloak (in most cases, a few cloaks disable sniper rifles I think).

If you make it overpowered, it will make FF rampant and frustrating for players, but if it is not overpowered, no infiltrator will use it because the cloak is so much better.
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Old 2012-06-22, 09:37 AM   [Ignore Me] #20
Marsgrim
Sergeant
 
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Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


Population wise, it's not about remembering if you have seen the same name twice, it's more about recognising strange behaviour around objectives.

It could be implemented in some ways:

1) A friendly infil could "unmask" a disguised enemy by tracking them with a cursor for 3 seconds or running within a certain distance of them.

2) Firing a weapon would remove the spy's disguise.

3) Not sure how grief lock could be overcome, however in TFC where friendly fire was on by default, any friendly would fire their weapon when entering the base to demonstrate they were not a disguised enemy as per point 2 above.

The other idea could be to put a time limit on the disguise.
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Old 2012-06-22, 09:52 AM   [Ignore Me] #21
Marsgrim
Sergeant
 
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Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


Originally Posted by MrMorton View Post
the real question is, what is the gameplay benefit of being able to disguise.

in TF2, the spy disguise adds to the gameplay as a way to approach your victim, as you cannot attack while cloaked.

However in PS2 you can attack straight from a cloak (in most cases, a few cloaks disable sniper rifles I think).

If you make it overpowered, it will make FF rampant and frustrating for players, but if it is not overpowered, no infiltrator will use it because the cloak is so much better.
Firstly, I should point out that the spy disguise was in Team Fortress Classic as a way to infiltrate an enemy base and get past automated turrets. It was not about racking up a kill count which unfortunately TF2 is about - but don't start me on how much better TFC was for teamplay than TF2.

You seem to be judging the suggestion purely based on getting kills, given a lot of us want a bit more tactics and strategy in the game, a disguise option for the infiltrator may allow it. By limiting weapons to say a pistol and knife and perhaps an explosive, it would add a different style of play.

So, given we as a community have requested that hacking play a more prominent role in the game - suppose you could hack an enemy vehicle, defence or base terminal (if viruses came back) whilst in disguise. Thus someone acting suspiciously around a hackable item or point could be a spy. The idea is to offer an option for the infiltrator class that's not about k/d.


As I understand it, the cloaking ability is not perfect invisibility in PS2, just like in PS1 there will be an outline when moving. If this is the case, then a disguise option would allow an infiltrator to pass through an enemy base more easily perhaps. It could also be implemented in game that cloaking does not make you invisible to thermal imaging sights - therefore a disguise may allow an infiltrator to pass that check. If there are non-manned automated turrets, they could possibly pick up cloaked targets but not disguised targets as a way to make the game play different.


This would mean an Infil with this cert line could become much more about intelligence gathering - e.g. "3 maxes at control point A supported by engy and medic and there's an infil sniping from the building above the east entry"

Last edited by Marsgrim; 2012-06-22 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 2012-06-22, 10:00 AM   [Ignore Me] #22
Kalbuth
First Sergeant
 
Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


You could also balance that out by having the guy you stole the uniform being able to see you from afar and get you tracked on the minimap.

In ET sequel, QuakeWars, you could 1) yell that someone was disguised as you, 2) see on the minimap where he was, simply by seeing "yourself" on the minimap. Tracking the spy was easy for the guy being immitated.

Since it's large scale and the guy stolen may have been so long after he's dead, and so not being aware his uniform has been stolen, you could put limit on uniform stealing : "can only steal uniform from unit you killed, in the X seconds after the kill. Will warn the victim in his death screen."
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Old 2012-06-22, 10:08 AM   [Ignore Me] #23
NewSith
Contributor
Brigadier General
 
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Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


I really don't wanna be a douchebag and say "No to TF2", but that's the way I feel, just so you know...
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Old 2012-06-22, 10:10 AM   [Ignore Me] #24
MrMorton
Sergeant
 
Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


Originally Posted by Marsgrim View Post
Firstly, I should point out that the spy disguise was in Team Fortress Classic as a way to infiltrate an enemy base and get past automated turrets. It was not about racking up a kill count which unfortunately TF2 is about - but don't start me on how much better TFC was for teamplay than TF2.

You seem to be judging the suggestion purely based on getting kills, given a lot of us want a bit more tactics and strategy in the game, a disguise option for the infiltrator may allow it. By limiting weapons to say a pistol and knife and perhaps an explosive, it would add a different style of play.

So, given we as a community have requested that hacking play a more prominent role in the game - suppose you could hack an enemy vehicle, defence or base terminal (if viruses came back) whilst in disguise. Thus someone acting suspiciously around a hackable item or point could be a spy. The idea is to offer an option for the infiltrator class that's not about k/d.


As I understand it, the cloaking ability is not perfect invisibility in PS2, just like in PS1 there will be an outline when moving. If this is the case, then a disguise option would allow an infiltrator to pass through an enemy base more easily perhaps. It could also be implemented in game that cloaking does not make you invisible to thermal imaging sights - therefore a disguise may allow an infiltrator to pass that check. If there are non-manned automated turrets, they could possibly pick up cloaked targets but not disguised targets as a way to make the game play different.


This would mean an Infil with this cert line could become much more about intelligence gathering - e.g. "3 maxes at control point A supported by engy and medic and there's an infil sniping from the building above the east entry"
but to balance it you have to give an easy tell to avoid FF, but then if there has to be an easy tell why not just go with a stalker cloak for instance, that allows you to stay cloaked while standing still indefinitely.

Basically I am trying to say that you gain no tactical options using a balanced disguise over using the multiple types of cloaks they have implemented, as well as increasing FF incidents.
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Old 2012-06-22, 10:20 AM   [Ignore Me] #25
Kalbuth
First Sergeant
 
Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


Originally Posted by NewSith View Post
I really don't wanna be a douchebag and say "No to TF2", but that's the way I feel, just so you know...
Being forced to use a dead body (moreover, one you just killed) makes the mecanism really far from TF2 (where you disguise at will).
Like said above, it was implemented in Ennemy Territory, Quake Wars, Brink, and the result was really not the TF2 Spy-on-steroids (which can be fun, but not suited to a game like PS)
The act of actual shooting in these games while in disguise was not making you shoot, but was revealing you, and prevent you from shooting for like 1 or 2 seconds. It was not intended mainly as a ninja-killer skill, but an infiltration tool.

Having see both, I think, with limits, the ET way can adapt to PS2 as an alternate infiltration method. What is good in disguise compared to invisibility, is the acting factor compared to hunt&hide between the infil and his victim (and all the ones he warned, 'Ennemy disguised as me!' as a vsay, for example), and the ability to be "inside ennemy crowd" for intelligence gathering
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Old 2012-06-22, 10:22 AM   [Ignore Me] #26
Evahn
Private
 
Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


Let me share a story with you, one that many PS1 players have probably already heard.

The story is simple, and has happened to many people. Beyond a certain point, there were no names above everyone's heads, ally or no, but you could just identify people by outfit colors anyways... except for cloaked cloakers. And, you could always see an allied cloaker, even if they were moving slowly. Enemy cloakers, on the other hand, you could only see if they were firing or running or whatever. So, one way or another, it came down to this: you see a cloaker running or moving way out there, but no name above your head. That usually indicates an enemy, and there's no way to tell that that one is an ally at this point. So, probability is pretty high that you will take the shot, and if it's a sniper rifle, you can actually one-shot them. Only, instead of getting experience points, you get grief points. So, in the end, you get grief points, and the poor cloaker dies, in both cases before either of you can respond to the situation.

So, here's the point of my story: if you make an ally look like an enemy, someone with a powerful enough weapon is going to kill said ally before they can realize it was a disguise. If you had friendly fire off, that'd be one thing, but instead we have a grief point system that gives you weapons-lock if you rack up too many points within a limited time frame, which works great, but prevents the disguise system from working. Besides, as many have stated here, we have cloaking, which can make you completely invisible anyways, which in many cases is the superior mechanic imo.
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Old 2012-06-22, 10:27 AM   [Ignore Me] #27
Gonefshn
Contributor
Major
 
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Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


I don't like the idea because of the friendly fire issue and also the fact that it takes away from the importance of cloak
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Old 2012-06-22, 10:30 AM   [Ignore Me] #28
Magpie
Sergeant Major
 
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Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


No spy's pleases it would be a total

MIND FUCK

With like 2000 players I'll be too scared to log in.
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Old 2012-06-22, 10:34 AM   [Ignore Me] #29
ChillerDuu
Private
 
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Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


It's really hard to say how to balance this out because we'd have to test until it finally works with dozens of possibilities on how to work it with 2000+ individuals. Really they'd be going over this a lot just to make it just right. There would be a lot of issues with it I can imagine.
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Old 2012-06-22, 10:34 AM   [Ignore Me] #30
Sledgecrushr
Colonel
 
Re: Give Infiltrators the Ability to disguise as Enemy


Yeah I dont like it. Infils already have great camouflage, they can go invisible.
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