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Old 2012-06-06, 11:16 AM   [Ignore Me] #121
Kalbuth
First Sergeant
 
Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


Originally Posted by Neksar View Post
Wasdie has brought to light some very interesting points. You can call it the "lowest common denominator" if you want, but do realize that what's happening here is the same thing that happens with music, or any other entertainment medium. You're basically saying the current generation's stuff sucks, and the older stuff did it better.

Now, I'm all for enjoying Led Zeppelin, Ozzy, AC/DC, and a bunch of other artists that are these days considered dated, but in the end the newer stuff is going to be popular with a younger generation, and I'll still have my older stuff to enjoy. Hell, I find some newer stuff that I've enjoyed. Never thought I'd like any synthetic music, but there's been dubstep I've enjoyed as well.

I am rambling, but my point is this: gaming has moved forward, and the new stuff is not the same as the old, but that doesn't make it bad. The "lowest common denominator" that everyone refers to is going to be complaining about gaming trends in the next 10 years, and that's just something they're going to have to deal with too. Asking them to basically reskin the old Planetside is akin to saying, "Why aren't there more artists like Warrant these days?"

Back on topic, I think the length of time it takes to heal to full has struck a nice balance between the necessity of regenerating health to keep players in the fight, and the tradeoff for how long it takes to get back in. Personally, I will likely duck behind cover only to wait for my shields before poking my head out again, and I'd prefer it if shield regen was noticeably faster than health regen. Make one slower or the other faster; either'd probably work.
Unfortunately he seems to miss the whole scale brought up by Planetside. Applying CoD-only scheme to it is bound to fail, too spammy, too chaotic.
PS2 is something new.
Like I said, having supply, support and such isn't going to kill the "fast paced" element.
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Old 2012-06-06, 11:18 AM   [Ignore Me] #122
Redshift
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Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


Originally Posted by Bobby Shaftoe View Post
Regenerating shields and health are directly equivalent to the med app/eng tool, yet they say in PS1 it's bad whilst PS2 is good,
Actually i've never said med/eng was a bad thing. It makes no difference since everyone had it anyway. What we do have is a medic who now has an in combat heal, which is far superior to running off to hide every 20 seconds.
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Old 2012-06-06, 11:24 AM   [Ignore Me] #123
CutterJohn
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Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


Originally Posted by Bobby Shaftoe View Post
EXACTLY, jesus, this is the very point I expound upon yet everyone else says 'hurr super soldiers' OP, they can heal OOC.

Regenerating shields and health are directly equivalent to the med app/eng tool, yet they say in PS1 it's bad whilst PS2 is good, despite the end result being the very same god damn thing!

Christ, it's like the monty python arguement skit, but there's not even 2 people, it's just them having the same contradictory back'n'forth and not even seeing a problem with it!
To answer why the two aren't seen as equivalent requires noticing that the two aren't, in fact, equivalent.

Healing up over 40s+ while out of combat is not the same as healing up over 10s while out of combat. Regen is not as good as having support. Not even close. But its nice to have all the same.
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Old 2012-06-06, 11:26 AM   [Ignore Me] #124
Neksar
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Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


Another part of the problem with everyone and their mother having a medical applicator and BANK was that players who were a low BR did not have them. This is the logical conclusion of a freeform class system that allowed people to have those things in any loadout except MAX suits; a new player was all but helpless when the asshats with berets refused to heal anyone but themselves.

Freeform class customization was created likely with the intent that players would specialize on their own. The stream of complaints about "super soldiers" shows that it was obviously not the case, hence the class system we see now, and the regenerating health (that takes a Long-Ass Time (tm) compared to other modern shooters) that levels the playing field for people without a medic in their pocket at all times.

This regeneration needs to be there for this game to have adequate pacing for non-medic players, especially with TTKs being what they are. Medics will be incredibly useful, but now they won't be absolutely required to poke your head out of cover for more than a couple seconds without being reduced to uselessness by being stuck at nearly empty health.

Last edited by Neksar; 2012-06-06 at 11:31 AM.
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Click here to go to the next VIP post in this thread.   Old 2012-06-06, 11:30 AM   [Ignore Me] #125
Malorn
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Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


Why is this a bad thing? I see it as good.

There was a regen implant in PS1. It was not nearly as good as a med tool and it was slow, but still nice for healing minor damage and very inconvenient for heavy damage.

Natural healing is fine so long as it doesnt render medics meaningless. Its actually good for medics, who shoulnt be required for every cut and scrape so they can focus more on revives and badly wounded soldiers. Same reason MAX healing is good for engineers.

It isnt a medic or engineer's job to follow someone around like a team fortress 2 doctor with the sole purpose of perpetual healing. They should be able to do other things and switch to heals and revives when necessary, not every time some idiot takes minor damage.

Healing is also good because it doesnt mandate the presence of a medic or engineer. If you have a small squad it is nice to not have to say - damn we only have 3 guys, so one of you is a medic, and one is an engineer. That would suck. Flexibility is a good thing, but lime everything it is a tradeoff. No medic? No revives and slow healing. No engineer? MAX will have a harder timer, but they arent useless.
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Old 2012-06-06, 11:48 AM   [Ignore Me] #126
Eyeklops
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Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


OK. As to the comments about the Health Regen implant in PS1, it was only really useful for cloakers. Having the Health Regen implant free'd up the space used by the medapp in inventory. Which for a cloaker was extremely useful depending upon loadout. The implant had it's useful niche.

As far as PS2 regen. I am not sure how the mechanic worked. As long as the duration is set correctly it will rarely change the outcome for the front line players. Again, this will probably only be useful for cloakers who sneak behind enemy lines where support is not available.

In regards to BF3. Why do so many people forget about hardcore mode? In hardcore there is no health regen, no ammo/clip indicator, and no 3D spotting. Hell, I liked BC2 hardcore even better because it took away the map as well. So for all the people saying that BF3 is dumbed down..it may be in some ways, but playing on hardcore mode is well...fucking hard.
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Old 2012-06-06, 12:00 PM   [Ignore Me] #127
Memeotis
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Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


A slow health regen that starts after 60 seconds of not being hit. This way, players are not dependent on medics to a stupid extent. And since it starts this late, this health regen will NEVER have an impact on the actual engagements.
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Old 2012-06-06, 12:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #128
Bobby Shaftoe
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Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


Originally Posted by Redshift View Post
Actually i've never said med/eng was a bad thing. It makes no difference since everyone had it anyway. What we do have is a medic who now has an in combat heal, which is far superior to running off to hide every 20 seconds.
Yes, in combat heals which now slow combat down, it's not just this in isolation, it's the whole fucking edifice of certs/regen/3way map and in taking the flawed end implementation of certs via bundles and BR40 and free certs such as AMS/RExo (viz super soldiers, which weren't possible with BR20) and using that as the basis of their arguements instead of the original implementations.

Premise: PS1 combat was slow
Solution: Reduce weapon TTKs

They then mitigate this with getting heals in combat, forced ADS for anything past 10 metres, 'slow' regen instead of quick self healing(requiring certain circumstances), forced 'teamwork' viz pocket medics etc etc.

Healing over 40 seconds is worse then 10 you say? Except you don't have any mobility issues, vulnerability (past the low hp) due to not having weapons out. Not only that, in PS2 shields and health are the same thing, PS1 you had to fix both armour AND health. PS2 your shield is back up in the time it took you to get into cover and equip your first item.

People keep explaining, but you don't want to hear it.
People state self sustain in PS1 was bad because everyone could do it (cept maxs), yet it is still in PS2 and everyone can do it inc. MAXs and it's ok?

I'm fine with it in PS1, I'm fine with it in PS2, you all hated it in PS1 yet seem to think because you don't have to spend 6 certs, 2 holster slots, perform serveral actions and instead wait a little time, it's fine in PS2, the mechanics of it have changed but it's still getting back to 100% after taking damage.

a low BR did not have them.
And how is this different in PS2 with a low BR against a vet who actually has a better weapon than them now?
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Old 2012-06-06, 12:41 PM   [Ignore Me] #129
Spoof
Corporal
 
Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


Originally I was sceptical, but I think it's a good idea. In PS1 everyone took medic so they could self heal, and the best fights where those where you sought cover to heal up and keep pushing.

I feared the transition to a medic class would break that, but the health regen makes it valid tactic again.

Originally Posted by Goldeh View Post
Reason why I say this is because that if your dueling with a guy then he can just run away and heal up fully. I don't think that's what the game should be encouraging this attack and retreat style.
What has duelling got to do with Planetside? You're a long way from the heart and soul of Planetside if you find yourself concerned with duelling.

Originally Posted by Goldeh View Post
Furthermore, it kind of makes medics less worthwhile...
Not at all. With regen you flee and seek cover, but with a medic you stay and fight, and can be revived if you fall. That's a tactical difference that makes medics invaluable.

Last edited by Spoof; 2012-06-06 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 2012-06-06, 12:44 PM   [Ignore Me] #130
Anderz
Master Sergeant
 
Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


Cap the regeneration to something like 70% health. That way, it still gives snipers assist points if they hit a body shot at range and the enemy runs away. It also makes medics important, but not vital.
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This is the last VIP post in this thread.   Old 2012-06-06, 12:52 PM   [Ignore Me] #131
Malorn
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Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


How about we not make silly balance claims from looking at a demo that was clearly set up specifically for creating a fun session shooter for good E3 enjoyment and publicity.

Much of the mechanics we see here may be specifically for the demo. Wait a bit longer for beta, actually play the game for a bit, and then cone back with meaningful feedback.
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Old 2012-06-06, 01:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #132
wasdie
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Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


Originally Posted by Kalbuth View Post
Unfortunately he seems to miss the whole scale brought up by Planetside. Applying CoD-only scheme to it is bound to fail, too spammy, too chaotic.
PS2 is something new.
Like I said, having supply, support and such isn't going to kill the "fast paced" element.
Not at all, im feeding off what I see from the videos. I've specifically said that they've moved spawn points closer and it's easier to get into the battle then in Planetside 1.

Having micro supply and support blanked the infantry game across the board would kill the "fast paced" element pretty quickly. You're scheme revolves around pretty dedicated individuals playing support. Playing any FPS in the past 10 year has shown me that the average gamer does not care about that (try getting some ammo from a support in BF3). You can get some pretty dedicated groups of course, but when your target isn't a small niche audience, it's best to not burden the general gameplay with things that only a handful of people will find enjoyable.

It's an unnecessary distraction from this game. There are plenty of other teamwork oriented gameplay elements here that can be focused on which do not detract from the average lone-wolf game experience. Instead they enhance the game for those who choose to work as a very well coordinated team.

That's gameplay in 2012. You can't satisfy everybody, but you can satisfy the middle standard deviations. You're always going to have people who want everything taken to the next level because they have a belief that this more "hardcore" element is going to be better.

The health regen could just be a cert, we don't know. Even if it isn't, it's still much longer than your average and I'll bet you that it gets tweaked depending on player feedback and what they observe during beta. Health regen in a large scale FPS like this gets rid of many annoyances. Being stuck out in the middle of nowhere with no health and no ability to heal yourself (as it looks like those have been taken out) is going to happen quite a bit here if there is no health regen. I already brought up the point that PS2 has a faster pace than PS1 and that this pace dictates a different direction in how health is going to be handled.

From the gameplay, things like momentum and really micro-level squad tactics mean a lot more than they did before. Medics on the frontline healing people very quickly, people getting gunned down much quicker, the frontlines moving at a much faster pace. This is being integrated well with the large scale but a lot of the infantry play from PS1 has had to be adapted to fit the pace. Given the general trend of how people act in FPSs today and this increase paced, I can guess that most people will just rambo to their deaths instead of waiting for a medic to stroll on by. Unless getting back into the fight takes a significant effort (which it doesn't anymore), forcing people to stop and wait for a medic will result in a lower player retention.

You can throw up artificial barriers to make a game more difficult/annoying and require more teamwork, or you could make working as a team have more advantages so people do it for the rewards, not because they are forced. Nobody will be taking an objective by themselves in this game. Pure lone wolfing won't happen, so don't worry about that. However, putting people in a fast paced shooting environment then punching them in the gut every time they get into a firefight all in the sake of tradition and being "hardcore" is just going to be annoying to the average player. Give them intensive to work as a team. Make them feel like a solider alone yet part of a mighty army when they work together. Don't make them feel weak and insignificant.

Last edited by wasdie; 2012-06-06 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 2012-06-06, 01:12 PM   [Ignore Me] #133
Dreamcast
Major
 
Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


The funny thing is I bet the people crying about this are the same people in Planetside 1 who healed themselves everytime they got shot......

They were probably against classes too when it came out.


So Planetside 2, has a slow as hell health regen....Which is way better than Planetside 1 where most people just healed themselves pretty damn fast since a lot of people had medic cert....and you guys are crying?....lol



This a huge improvement over Planetside 1.....The only reason people are hating because Health Regeneration is associated with Battlefield and Call of duty.



Fact is Medics will be way more valuable in planetside 2 than in Planetside 1.....where most people were medics with snipers/heavy assults etc and instantly healed themselves when shot.......so don't say it ruins the medic in Planetside 2 lol.



Devaluing medics LMAO.....Planetside 2 enhance them with classes.



BTW 1:18 to 1:56......Thats how much it took to go to full health, thats 38 seconds.


I guess thats too much for planetside vets...they need to be able to heal our selves at 15 seconds or something.

Last edited by Dreamcast; 2012-06-06 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 2012-06-06, 01:15 PM   [Ignore Me] #134
sylphaen
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


Originally Posted by Malorn View Post
If you have a small squad it is nice to not have to say - damn we only have 3 guys, so one of you is a medic, and one is an engineer.
Good point.
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Old 2012-06-06, 01:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #135
Baneblade
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Re: Regenerating Health?...Why?


If you don't want someone regenerating, shoot them.
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