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View Poll Results: Do you want Prone in PS2?
Yes 152 31.21%
No 312 64.07%
Other (Explain) 23 4.72%
Voters: 487. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-06-10, 03:49 PM   [Ignore Me] #796
mirwalk
Sergeant
 
Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


I worry about two main things with prone.

First is chokepoints. I see 3 or 4 guys in a stairway laying prone. They do this in a manner that allows them to shoot down the stairs while only having maybe 10% of the body exposed to enemy fire. As such 3 guys (4 if you have a medic) can hold off 10-20 people. This is mostly caused by you being prone and getting lots of cover, and lots of accuracy to shoot at the enemies. While the enemy is denied any cover and loses accuracy since they are moving.
Good tactic? You bet. frustrating as hell to the average gamer? You bet.

The same situation with crouchers, and you can hold off maybe 6-10 people. the amount of extra trouble prone causes to attackers is where most of the issue is. Many gamers can't stand it and most won't care as much that it is gone.

Second scenario. Snipers. Lots of rock and cover out there to snipe from. That's with crouching. Add prone and that locations jump by 100% or more. Very difficult for people to spot and work out where you are. Especially without kill cams. Add a little cloak for movement between sniping spots. A good sniper will be damn near unkillable.

Of course most gamers hate snipers since you get the feeling of having no recourse to fight back as you are not as accurate at range as they are, and you have a hard time locating them in the brush, especially with camo, cloak, and prone.

Both of these situations exist in game currently with crouch. With prone the issue goes up by a lot.

The answer of use grenades and AOE weapons is not as good as it was in PS1. The Devs have stated they are working to reduce AOE use and spamming. Hence the reason grenades cost resources. We don't have the rocklet or thumper.

Also the other rocket/ grenade weapons are AV weapons on MAXs. And from the E3 feeds you can see they reduced the damage those do to infantry. Most maxes died to regular soldiers when using AV against them. So those are not going to help break such choke point scenarios.

Most of these issues will happen in buildings and base fights. You can't call in much help from air when you are in a bunker. They only real hope is breaking these setups with MAXs.

I don't have a decent fix with snipers. The only sniper who would be caught is a static sniper. If he moves every min or two, he will be difficult to take out.

Most of what people want prone for can be accomplished by crouch and little higher cover then in most games. However prone opens a new level of power and use that can overbalance a game in one way or another.

One point I would make on prone and LAs. Sure using prone takes away the ability to jump jet. However, the places they can get to and then go prone at increases. This can make it impossible for anyone but another LA to get to that location to sneak up on them or take them out.

I remember BF3 fights I left after being sniped again and again by someone in a building that I had no way to get to and couldn't shoot at. He had the height for more field of fire, he had open ground to kill me in if I tried to cross the distance, He was hard to locate as to which building he was in. With as open as Planetside is, I don't want to make you average, low skilled player to be easy kills to the point they just say forget it an leave.
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Old 2012-06-10, 03:53 PM   [Ignore Me] #797
mirwalk
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Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


Originally Posted by Khrusky View Post
Sincere interest:
Do we agree that prone should be in the beta for testing, or is this a contended point also?
I would say keep it out. As I said in my previous post, once in I think unless it is completely broken it would not be removed. By that I mean the game without prone would be like a 9 but with would be a 7. Too many people would throw a tantrum if you pulled out a feature that a vocal minority likes to get prone removed. So it would pull the game down. The players who don't like it would leave or grumble about it. So usually these things remain.

This above is a fear, and if done then you could never know what may have happened a different way.
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Old 2012-06-10, 03:55 PM   [Ignore Me] #798
ThermalReaper
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Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


I guess if you put it in and it's removed you'd have many people complaining about the removal. If you hadn't put it in a lower amount of people would have complained.
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Old 2012-06-10, 03:56 PM   [Ignore Me] #799
Gandhi
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Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
These kind of arguments should really be left out. You aren't qualified, nor familiar with their engine, to judge how easily such things can be implemented. This argument style has also been frowned upon in numerous other threads since it can apply to anything added to the game whether you support it or not.
Normally I'd agree with you, but in this case it's obvious. Animations are always time consuming and collision testing for body parts is a common problem with prone in any game, it's not something you just throw in at the end of the development cycle.
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Old 2012-06-10, 03:57 PM   [Ignore Me] #800
Stew
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Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


Originally Posted by mirwalk View Post
I worry about two main things with prone.

First is chokepoints. I see 3 or 4 guys in a stairway laying prone. They do .
the utility grenade will have no ressource cost but a cool down time like smoke flash emp etc..

so a flash grenade in a room full of camper will do the job or a smoke screen as well smoke screen thermal vision their is a lots of combo you can make alos MAX or GL many many thing and the exact same thing will happen with corner camper while stand up or crouch the prone have so not make it more complicated or less complicated in a room clearing senario !
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Old 2012-06-10, 03:59 PM   [Ignore Me] #801
Khrusky
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Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


Originally Posted by mirwalk View Post
I worry about two main things with prone.

First is chokepoints. I see 3 or 4 guys in a stairway laying prone. They do this in a manner that allows them to shoot down the stairs while only having maybe 10% of the body exposed to enemy fire. As such 3 guys (4 if you have a medic) can hold off 10-20 people. This is mostly caused by you being prone and getting lots of cover, and lots of accuracy to shoot at the enemies. While the enemy is denied any cover and loses accuracy since they are moving.
Good tactic? You bet. frustrating as hell to the average gamer? You bet.

The same situation with crouchers, and you can hold off maybe 6-10 people. the amount of extra trouble prone causes to attackers is where most of the issue is. Many gamers can't stand it and most won't care as much that it is gone.

Second scenario. Snipers. Lots of rock and cover out there to snipe from. That's with crouching. Add prone and that locations jump by 100% or more. Very difficult for people to spot and work out where you are. Especially without kill cams. Add a little cloak for movement between sniping spots. A good sniper will be damn near unkillable.

Of course most gamers hate snipers since you get the feeling of having no recourse to fight back as you are not as accurate at range as they are, and you have a hard time locating them in the brush, especially with camo, cloak, and prone.

Both of these situations exist in game currently with crouch. With prone the issue goes up by a lot.

The answer of use grenades and AOE weapons is not as good as it was in PS1. The Devs have stated they are working to reduce AOE use and spamming. Hence the reason grenades cost resources. We don't have the rocklet or thumper.

Also the other rocket/ grenade weapons are AV weapons on MAXs. And from the E3 feeds you can see they reduced the damage those do to infantry. Most maxes died to regular soldiers when using AV against them. So those are not going to help break such choke point scenarios.

Most of these issues will happen in buildings and base fights. You can't call in much help from air when you are in a bunker. They only real hope is breaking these setups with MAXs.

I don't have a decent fix with snipers. The only sniper who would be caught is a static sniper. If he moves every min or two, he will be difficult to take out.

Most of what people want prone for can be accomplished by crouch and little higher cover then in most games. However prone opens a new level of power and use that can overbalance a game in one way or another.

One point I would make on prone and LAs. Sure using prone takes away the ability to jump jet. However, the places they can get to and then go prone at increases. This can make it impossible for anyone but another LA to get to that location to sneak up on them or take them out.

I remember BF3 fights I left after being sniped again and again by someone in a building that I had no way to get to and couldn't shoot at. He had the height for more field of fire, he had open ground to kill me in if I tried to cross the distance, He was hard to locate as to which building he was in. With as open as Planetside is, I don't want to make you average, low skilled player to be easy kills to the point they just say forget it an leave.
  1. Grenades. they may not be as spammable as they were in PS1 but I'm pretty sure at least one of those 10 guys would be able to throw a decent grenade at the immobile prone players.
  2. Aircraft or thermal sights. Or even roaming light vehicles. Snipers that are that careful will also be killing a lot less people than the slight risk-takers. They pay the price for being careful and they should be rewarded for that.
Your comments at the end don't require the sniper to be prone. He was probably crouching and moving after each shot if you couldn't work out what building he was in.
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Old 2012-06-10, 04:00 PM   [Ignore Me] #802
TheInferno
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Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


Originally Posted by Stew View Post
the utility grenade will have no ressource cost but a cool down time like smoke flash emp etc..
Grenades cost resources period.

Last edited by TheInferno; 2012-06-10 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 2012-06-10, 04:00 PM   [Ignore Me] #803
mirwalk
Sergeant
 
Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


Originally Posted by Stew View Post
the utility grenade will have no ressource cost but a cool down time like smoke flash emp etc..

so a flash grenade in a room full of camper will do the job or a smoke screen as well smoke screen thermal vision their is a lots of combo you can make alos MAX or GL many many thing and the exact same thing will happen with corner camper while stand up or crouch the prone have so not make it more complicated or less complicated in a room clearing senario !
My understanding is all the grenades cost resources. I am not aware of any utility whenever grenade.
As for smoke, doesn't matter if there is a choke point. Just fill the area with lead and watch them drop. You are keeping the kill area small for a reason. Mostly doorways. See smoke? Start firing.
GL? Grenade launcher? What the single shot one under your gun? There is no mulitshot grenade launcher in the game like the Thumper. As I said in my post add in the medic and you will have a hard time ending the group holding you off.
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Old 2012-06-10, 04:01 PM   [Ignore Me] #804
Khrusky
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Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


Yeah I do agree; as I said before, adding it would be easier than removing it with regards to player reaction.
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Old 2012-06-10, 04:03 PM   [Ignore Me] #805
Khrusky
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Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


Originally Posted by mirwalk View Post
GL? Grenade launcher? What the single shot one under your gun? There is no mulitshot grenade launcher in the game like the Thumper. As I said in my post add in the medic and you will have a hard time ending the group holding you off.
So get everyone to throw grenades, is that really impossible?
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Old 2012-06-10, 04:04 PM   [Ignore Me] #806
mirwalk
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Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


@Khrusky
Yeah as I said everything you do with prone can be done with crouch. Prone just makes things twice as hard for people on the other end.
Depending on the scenario it could be an attacker (open areas) or a defender (closed areas).

A proper squad using tactics, armed with prone and voice chat in game? Will be nigh unstoppable defenders. With crouch they will be very good defenders. It is a matter of degree, one which I think prone in certain situations moves a bit to far and thus would be better left out of the game then in it.
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Old 2012-06-10, 04:06 PM   [Ignore Me] #807
Stew
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Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


Originally Posted by TheInferno View Post
Grenades cost resources period.
utility grenade NO

offensive grenade yes

theyre will be a utility slot for equipments and also a offensive slot

Offensive = C4 or frag grenade or anything thats can hurt

Utility = flash grenade , emp grenade , healing grenade , revive grenade , smoke grenade ,

all the utility was suposed to be based on a cooldown not on ressource wich offensive Grenade and c4 will cost ressources
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Old 2012-06-10, 04:06 PM   [Ignore Me] #808
maradine
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Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


You don't need a multi-shot grenade launcher to scatter your hypothetical love nest. You need 2 or 3 guys with pineapples.

Since when was it a problem that a prepared strong point was difficult to crack without coordination?
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Old 2012-06-10, 04:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #809
mirwalk
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Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


Originally Posted by Khrusky View Post
So get everyone to throw grenades, is that really impossible?
it would be difficult with choke points. You step out to throw and get blocked by another player, you die. One guy misthrows and it bounces near the door, you get a breakup of the attackers and maybe some casualities.

You are also assuming a grenade lading close to a heavy will kill him if at full health, cause with a medic that is who will be up there.

As I just posted and you probably haven't read yet. Its a matter of degree. A line I think shouldn't be crossed. But as I posted earlier, once in the game I can almost guarantee it won't be removed, unless it just breaks the game.
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Old 2012-06-10, 04:10 PM   [Ignore Me] #810
TheInferno
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Re: Planetside 2 Needs Prone


Originally Posted by Stew View Post
utility grenade NO

offensive grenade yes

theyre will be a utility slot for equipments and also a offensive slot

Offensive = C4 or frag grenade or anything thats can hurt

Utility = flash grenade , emp grenade , healing grenade , revive grenade , smoke grenade ,

all the utility was suposed to be based on a cooldown not on ressource wich offensive Grenade and c4 will cost ressources
You got a source for this? Because I have not heard anything other than "grenades cost resources"
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