class - Page 2

Firefly · 2011-07-25, 10:33 AM

I dislike "class" for an FPS. This is not WAR or WoW or Rift, this is Planetside. It's a shooter. A military-themed shooter. Sci-fi military, but military nonetheless. I chose MOS for that reason, and also just to be different than the gamers who say "class" or "specialty" or "role" or "cert".

"Class" speaks to me of being pigeon-holed into a specific set of givens - oh, you're a dwarf? Naturally you can only use axes and hammers. Oh, you're an elf? Guess what, thin little swords and a bow/arrow. Oh you're a human? You can do any goddamn thing you want. Oh, you're a healer? A stupid robe, a funny hat and not much else. Oh, you're a rogue? A cloak and dagger for you!

"Class" says, you can only do certain things and you can only use certain weapons. Frankly, that's stupid in my opinion. Yes, everyone in the military has a specific trade - but we cross-train. As an infantryman my job was to learn to shoot every infantry-based weapons system from pistols and bigger small arms up to crew-served weapons like fifty-cals, Mk19 automatic grenade launchers, the loud-as-fuck Carl Gustav recoilless rifle, and anti-tank missile launchers. Being a big infantryman meant I was singled out to carry the big guns, until they found out I was an expert shot and got to be a sniper. And guess what? I also got trained as a "Combat Lifesaver", which meant I was further trained in basic EMT tasks beyond what they taught in Basic, up to and including administering an IV. My job as the squad's CLS was to provide first aid and basic medical treatment for a wounded/injured soldier enough to stabilise him for transport for further treatment. So, my "class" went from tank to melee DPS to ranged DPS to healer, when all I'd enlisted for was 11B1PV (now called Option 40), airborne infantry Ranger.

When I reclassed (just can't escape that goddamn term) into the intel field, I was originally an analyst. I cross-trained on voice-intercept because they let me learn languages. And I was in a tactical intel unit so I taught my troops how to do basic combat infantry stuff. They cross-trained. When I reclassed yet again into voice-intercept, they had me doing analysis and database building and sysadmin bullshit. I quickly volunteered for other stuff that had no relevance to anything I'd been trained for.

LZachariah · 2011-07-25, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Firefly

MOS. As in, Military Occupational Specialty.

Dammit, Firefly you beat me to it! >.<

That's exactly what I was thinking as I read down this thread, and THEREEEEE you go, getting the jump on me with your FILTHY, faster-than-Zach, uber-smart post o.O

Ahem. Yes, I agree with Firefly- MOS is the best term

~Zachariah

basti · 2011-07-25, 11:08 AM

And for those coming along saying that MOS doesnt mean anything to the generic MMO/FPS player: YES, THATS THE POINT! If you just say "class", they propably react like we did when we first heard about it. You know, the rage of July, as it will be called in history books.
When you say class, they just go "ah yea, i understand", and you dont go into enough detail to make them really understand. If you say MOS, you would get a "what?" as reply. And thats important, because their opinion wont be based on other expiriences, but you would rather explain something new to them. And really, the combination of Ranks(levels) and time based Skills, together with a class system, hasnt been done before. Calling that entire thing "The Mos System" would really help.

Firefly · 2011-07-25, 11:30 AM

There are typically 4 archetypes in an MMO-RPG - they can be further broken down into "hybrids". Those archetypes are healer, melee DPS, tank, and ranged DPS. Hybrids would be combinations, like a DPS-healer or ranged tank. But those are the basic archetypes that almost all game developers use for RPGs.

Now consider that the US Army had at one recent point over 200 MOS identifiers (ie, 11B, 96B, 00B, 31U, etc). That means over 200 jobs that the Army wanted people to perform in its all-volunteer force. Some of them may have been redundant, some may have been a specialized role for a more generic MOS. So Army leaders have done some cleaning and retooling, and currently I think the count is around 190.

Helluva lot more than 4 archetypes.

There's no such thing as a "grenade-launcher MOS". You're a soldier and your assigned weapon is the M203 so you learn, in addition to the M16/M4, the M203 as part of your basic combat skills. You could be a fucking water purification specialist and your unit says "You're going to be your squad's grenadier." Bam, OJT to be a 203-gunner. Your MOS is water purification, but because the Army uses a set number of weapons for regular-Army troops, you might carry a pistol, you might carry an M16, you might carry an M4, you might carry the 203, you might carry an M249, or you might even carry an M60 if your unit has that weapon on its TO&E. You're a REMF water-purifier but you might be a better 203 gunner than some infantryman who's got a 203. Not likely, but possible. It's not like the Army says "Oh, you're a water-boy? Your weapon is this here M16. Oh, you're an infantryman? Here, take this G36." They use the same weapons, depending on what their unit says.

Same thing for artillery. You go to school to learn artillery-ing. You get to your unit. They're using the M109 Paladin. You learn to drive it, you serve as driver for a while. Check you out, driver. Then one day SPC Smith breaks his arm and can't load cannon shells, so the TC puts you on the gun. Now you're a gunner. Then one day you change duty stations. Your new unit is using M198s and M777s. Now you're using a different piece of equipment and doing a similar job under much different circumstances.

Rbstr · 2011-07-25, 12:14 PM

I love that double standard on realism we've got going on now.

Lonehunter · 2011-07-25, 12:15 PM

Class is just a simple generic label for the masses who don't know Planetside. That's the word they're used to, and the one they've used in other shooters.

Although I love MOS, that isn't exactly something you put on the game box or a PC Gamer Article.

As far as y'all comparing it to RPGs, that's just you, lol. The word "class" has plenty of roots/experience in the FPS genre.

headcrab13 · 2011-07-25, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by BorisBlade

I wouldnt use specialization. There really isnt alot of "specialization" in the way most think of it since with time you can get every one of these things.

Not sure if you saw the latest interview with Higby (from G4TV), but he said some players would pursue the same skill tree for a year and still not max it out. I'm with you on wanting certain players to be permanently specialized in certain things, so his comments on that really put me at ease knowing that some people will be REALLY deeply specced in tanks or Gals or a certain rifle. I'm pretty excited about the long-term possibilities there, as it sounds like we'll see a great variety of players with unique skill-sets, at least for the first few years.

-HC13

Firefly · 2011-07-25, 12:32 PM

I'm not asking for Planetside to be realistic in some aspects and not realistic in others - anyone who interpreted that should stop trying to intuit what I mean. I provided real-world translation between archetypes and Army MOSes to make a point. Not to inject certain streams of realism into some areas whilst shunning it from everything else.

Planetside is *different*. It's not an RPG, we know this. It's not a generic FPS, we know this. Well most of us do - dipshits like BannedElemental can't get that through their heads. I chose the term MOS to be markedly different from everyone else, for the simple sake of being different. Different the way that Planetside is different. Not special-ed different, not emo-goth tight-pants-wearing different, just "not your average generic game" different. So what if it's not something everyone ELSE puts on a box? Everyone ELSE has a WoW clone or something that isn't Planetside.

Imagine it on a box. "In Planetside, you choose one of 15 different MOSes, ie your role or specialty..." Not that hard. Took me about two seconds to think up.

Class, role, specialty... those are generic terms for generic games. I dislike the term class as it pertains to Planetside's certification-type ideas. I am not a "class" unless it's high-class asshole. In-game, I primarily prefer to operate in an infiltrator suit, hacking stuff, giving bases the hiv, scouting for my outfit, and blowing stuff up. That would make my "class" Scout or Rogue or some other retarded D&D term. In Planetside parlance I'd be an Infiltrator. But that's not my "class" - my class is an outfit leader and player who prefers not to be pigeonholed into one specific role.

1Shotwonder · 2011-07-25, 12:37 PM

either way a class or role still both sound permanent because they have been used in mmorpgs and usually have to make multi. tunes for a class/role in the game. Seeing as it is going to be interchangeable in ps2 its going to be difficult to properly call it something that is continually interchangeable role

Vancha · 2011-07-25, 12:52 PM

I think we should probably see how "class"-like PS2's "classes" are before we go changing the name. If they work differently to other "class"-based shooters, then I wholeheartedly agree they should have their own Planetside-esque name.

Digressing slightly, I think we should be more worried about the EVE-style system turning people off from trying the game, even if it's not as consequential as EVE's system I can see people automatically jumping to equivalent conclusions.

CutterJohn · 2011-07-25, 12:52 PM

Being a Navy man, I object to the suggestion of the awkward acronym MOS, and suggest Rating be used in its stead. It possesses a far more storied history of use, bears a heightened sense of gravitas, and most simply, rolls of the tongue easier.

Firefly · 2011-07-25, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Being a Navy man, I object to the suggestion of the awkward acronym MOS, and suggest Rating be used in its stead. It possesses a far more storied history of use, bears a heightened sense of gravitas, and most simply, rolls of the tongue easier.

I disagree on the premise that, to my un-Naval ears, rating sounds like one of two things:

1) rating, as in an enlisted Navy sailor... as opposed to an officer
2) an assessment of my quality

On a similar note (because I don't know the answer), do officers in the Navy have ratings? In the Army, our officers have their own MOS classification but they're said to be in a specific Branch... ie, Intelligence, Infantry, Armour, etc.

Rbstr · 2011-07-25, 02:30 PM

Or you could call it a class and everyone understands what it does.
It's been used in FPS games for a very long time. There is no real confusion. It's been used in system where classes level and specialise and in games where they don't. The very definition fits exactly: A set or category of things having some property or attribute in common and differentiated from others by kind, type, or quality.

One of the very first online FPS games I played used it in a very PS2 similar, if much more shallow, classes + leveling system: Wolfenstien: Enemy Territory. What do you call TF2's character types, DoD's, battlefield's and on and on and on?

CutterJohn · 2011-07-25, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Firefly

I disagree on the premise that, to my un-Naval ears, rating sounds like one of two things:

1) rating, as in an enlisted Navy sailor... as opposed to an officer
2) an assessment of my quality

1) Indeed, and a good thing too.

2) And Specialty isn't?

On a similar note (because I don't know the answer), do officers in the Navy have ratings? In the Army, our officers have their own MOS classification but they're said to be in a specific Branch... ie, Intelligence, Infantry, Armour, etc.

Yep. They're called designators. The army loves acronyms. The navy loves just having a ton of different terms for the hell of it.

Firefly · 2011-07-25, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

2) And Specialty isn't?

I suppose it's a case of "terminology to each their own". My Army-wide answer is, we don't call it a specialty, we refer to it as an MOS. If I see a dude in an Army uniform and I say "Hey troop, what's your MOS?" then he knows what I'm talking about. However, the only "specialty" to which I measured myself is my Ranger scroll and my Ranger tab. Nothing else matters - that is a measure of performance and ultimate achievement. I suppose that's just a personal preference that only a select few share. Just like if you ask someone what their job is and they tell you they're a cashier at Wal-Mart, only that doesn't come with a measuring stick of what they're about.

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

The army loves acronyms. The navy loves just having a ton of different terms for the hell of it.

As opposed to making up whole new words? CINCLANTFLTCOMPACDOODOO... need I say more?

Originally Posted by Rbstr

What do you call TF2's character types, DoD's, battlefield's and on and on and on?

I call them what the game calls them, because that's the name given. If Planetside calls them classes, I call them classes because that's what they're called. If TF2 calls them specialties, that's what I call them. If DoD calls them specs, that's what I call them. If Battlefield calls them dicks, that's what I call them. Everybody uses the same damned term - my preference would be that Planetside uses a different name to denote the fact that we are not DoD, BF1942, BF2, BF3, BF2142, CoD, MW2, MoH, DDO, WoW, WAR, DAoC, Rift, Allods, AEIOUandsometimesY.