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Old 2012-06-10, 06:38 AM   [Ignore Me] #1
DviddLeff
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Squad specialisation - size limit


Working on my tactics site most military forces organise their squads into fire teams of 4 - having 2 or 3 fire teams in a squad. Planetside has 10 men, and fire teams of 5 do not work due to players having buddies and operating in pairs together.

Now there are of course ways around this but I would like to see some flexibility in squad size, allowing players to limit squads to 8 men (which is obviously already achievable) but also expand them to 12 men.

Thoughts?
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Old 2012-06-10, 07:10 AM   [Ignore Me] #2
Rexdezi
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


I think 12 would be the optimal number, as thats how many fit in the Sunderer and Galaxy
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Old 2012-06-10, 07:54 AM   [Ignore Me] #3
SgtMAD
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


teams of 5 do work,3 shooters one medic,one engy

12 man squads would be nice , that way the whole gal crew can be in one squad
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Old 2012-06-10, 08:44 AM   [Ignore Me] #4
Saifoda
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


This is a non-issue IMO, and we need to be a little more realistic when drawing from our realistic sources (ironic, yes I know). And for clarification, US Army Light Infantry squads according to TRADOC (and in practice) are composed of 2 fireteams of 3 lower enlisted and one NCO, and 1 squad leader making it a squad of 9. USMC Infantry I believe have 3 fireteams of 4 plus a SL, for 13 (correct me if I'm wrong, the only interaction I've had with Marines has been handing them their asses while playing OPFOR). If you're talking about mounted crews (BFV, IFV, etc...) you might have a crew of 3 per vehicle, maybe 4, plus dismounts (usually a squad or fireteam of light infantry, often in a separate unit [platoon usually]). Doing convoy ops overseas our particular unit was composed of 2 squads, one with 12 including a medic and the other with 11 making 23*. Our unit was a light Infantry company in an armored cav brigade.



Basically my point is this -- don't sweat this small stuff, the bigger your squad the more damage you can do, 10 is plenty, there's really no reason to go down to 8 (if you've played the first game, you know that as soon as your opponents get involved any plan you've made, no matter how foolproof, eventually just becomes "GO TO WP1 AND TAKE THE BACK DOOR" or equivalent).

*=EDIT; I can math.......

Last edited by Saifoda; 2012-06-10 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 2012-06-10, 11:44 AM   [Ignore Me] #5
MedicDude
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


I'd like to see squads with either 6 or 12, this divides perfectly into your 2 OR 3 position vehicles, and the 12 spot galaxy and sunderer.

Saifoda, while I agree with your 'go to wp1' analysis, I think the reason we saw this was the break down in trying to command 9 other players; it's not practical.

This is why you see small fire-teams of 3 or 4 IRL, with variable sizes on squad and platoon strength.

The best compromise would be to increase squad size to 12, and allow the squad leader to select up to 5 fire team leaders, he can split the squad however he sees fit, up to 6 groups of 2 player fire teams.
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Old 2012-06-10, 01:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #6
Saifoda
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


Definitely valid. I think overall the introduction of Team Leaders (again, I'll get that "article" finished up and posted so we can talk about the validity and mechanics of it) will help solve a lot of command and control issues that we saw in PS1.
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Old 2012-06-12, 11:52 AM   [Ignore Me] #7
Baneblade
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


I was going to make a new topic about this, but I'll just post it here:

Code:
CC
 |
------------
PL   PL   PL
           |
          ------------
          SL   SL   SL
                     |
                    ------------
                    TL   TL   TL
                               |
  3 players = 4 player fire team or air flight
CC = Company Commander
PL = Platoon Leader
SL = Squad Leader
TL = Team Leader

Potential Player counts for each command level:

Team = 4
Squad = 13 ((4x3)+1)
Platoon = 27 ((13x3)+1)
Company = 82 ((27x3)+1)

I think even the largest outfits will have to work hard to fill that out, but it will let them be very organized without having to train that organization so much. Leadership Experience should flow up the tree.

Last edited by Baneblade; 2012-06-12 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 2012-06-12, 12:18 PM   [Ignore Me] #8
Saifoda
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


Originally Posted by Sobekeus View Post
...
Team = 4
Squad = 13 ((4x3)+1)
Platoon = 27 ((13x3)+1)
Company = 82 ((27x3)+1)

I think even the largest outfits will have to work hard to fill that out, but it will let them be very organized without having to train that organization so much. Leadership Experience should flow up the tree.
I like it, and idk about you but I remember in PS1 even having outfit-internal platoons was quite the task for managing to keep the unit together (not just physically on the map, but also players leaving etc...) so when i see anything that says "company" level I get simultaneously excited and a little bit sad

The company level stuff would be quite the challenge to maintain, probably even within an outfit but I think really it would be the most realistic to expect that companies will be formed within outfits.


I had some ideas on the mission system which I think would help to fix some of the issues with being "in charge" of so many players, in this thread (check it out): http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...ad.php?t=42560




EDIT: Sorry I haven't gotten my team leader article out yet, I'll try to get that done asap.

Last edited by Saifoda; 2012-06-12 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 2012-06-13, 02:14 AM   [Ignore Me] #9
Grognard
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


Originally Posted by Sobekeus View Post
I was going to make a new topic about this, but I'll just post it here:

Code:
CC
 |
------------
PL   PL   PL
           |
          ------------
          SL   SL   SL
                     |
                    ------------
                    TL   TL   TL
                               |
  3 players = 4 player fire team or air flight
CC = Company Commander
PL = Platoon Leader
SL = Squad Leader
TL = Team Leader

Potential Player counts for each command level:

Team = 4
Squad = 13 ((4x3)+1)
Platoon = 27 ((13x3)+1)
Company = 82 ((27x3)+1)

I think even the largest outfits will have to work hard to fill that out, but it will let them be very organized without having to train that organization so much. Leadership Experience should flow up the tree.
Excellent, glad to see I'm not the only one that is pro-company level organization, via game support. Keep in mind, rolling an under strength company, with an intact command structure, just needs to click the auto-squad-join broadcast mechanism. It will fill out, soon enough. Even if it doesnt, there is precedent for under strength companies, in every war where troops saw action for any length of time...




Edit: The squad / platoon / company leaders can all be inclusive to structure the numbers down.

Team = 4
Squad = 12 (4x3), Squad Leader inclusive (=1st team leader), and fits present vehicles.
Platoon = 36 (12x3) Platoon Leader inclusive (=1st squad leader).
Company = 108 (36x3) Company Commander inclusive (=1st platoon leader).

Personally, when I did it, I left out teams, and it worked pretty good, but I used squads of 10.

Last edited by Grognard; 2012-06-13 at 02:31 AM.
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Old 2012-06-13, 07:45 AM   [Ignore Me] #10
Baneblade
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


Wow, major math fail on my part... lol

Team = 4
Squad = 13
Platoon = 40
Company = 121

Your way works too and might be more elegant overall.

Teams works like squads in PS1 with up to 4 players (I refuse to cater to the GG). Squads, Platoons, and Companies work like Platoons in PS1. That could work.

No need to display it all like PS1 does either, a command tree overlay that you can access via tab(?) will show you the current command hierarchy. Leaders should be able to see all Company units on the map, but the rank and file don't need that information... unless they need it for the role or something.
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Old 2012-06-13, 09:42 AM   [Ignore Me] #11
Saifoda
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


Remember though that "rank and file" are the life blood of the game. Let everybody look at it if they want; doesn't hurt anything and may make some players feel more involved, rather than "You're just a private, you don't need to know this stuff"
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Old 2012-06-13, 09:49 AM   [Ignore Me] #12
Hosp
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


I'd like to see squads with either 6 or 12, this divides perfectly into your 2 OR 3 position vehicles, and the 12 spot galaxy and sunderer.
I'm going to agree with this.
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Old 2012-06-13, 12:24 PM   [Ignore Me] #13
Baneblade
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


Originally Posted by Saifoda View Post
Remember though that "rank and file" are the life blood of the game. Let everybody look at it if they want; doesn't hurt anything and may make some players feel more involved, rather than "You're just a private, you don't need to know this stuff"
True and it tends to get the blood boiling more when you can see 100 other people working with you.
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Old 2012-06-13, 04:44 PM   [Ignore Me] #14
Saifoda
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


Originally Posted by Sobekeus View Post
True and it tends to get the blood boiling more when you can see 100 other people working with you.
Exactly.


Basically no sense in restricting information if it is not detrimental, good example would be SOE's plan to release info for apps and what website n junk.
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Old 2012-06-13, 07:06 PM   [Ignore Me] #15
OutlawDr
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Re: Squad specialisation - size limit


I think SOE should eventually add in-game tools to allow players to organize above platoon into companies.

Even though coordination of multiple platoons is something that a large outfit's high command can organize easily enough (since all they need is for the few platoon leaders to get on comms channel with the main commander, and use the in-game tools for squad and platoon level command) there is no reason to limit it to just large outfits. They need to allow smaller outfits that are only platoon size to be able to attach themselves to other platoons for the night. Having in-game tools for them to organize with is ideal instead of expecting them to all exchange TS/Vent info (some people don't want to give away info like that to just anyone). Really, all thats needed is for the creation of special "Company" voice channel for the platoon leaders and commander to use once the company is formed.

Last edited by OutlawDr; 2012-06-13 at 07:10 PM.
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