Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2

[Fear The Amish]

Originally Posted by FireWater

Fair enough, but I think even in SC II Zerg doesn't necessarily dominate the other 2 races, as the game is fairly balanced.





If you took away clan tags while playing, would the average PS2 player be able to tell the difference between zerg vs zerg as opposed to big outfits with organized divisions? Hell I have a problem telling the difference because we mow through so many different players/outfits.



We won't. But it will benefit more organized outfits (which have a tendency to be smaller outfits) then larger outfits, with too many players to rigorously control.





I would challenge the "can't" in your second sentence. If Large outfits can't control their players to a certain degree, why are they such a problem? Also a socially close knit team would yield better results on the battlefield? Maybe yes maybe no, but large outfits can form tight groups of people as well within their own outfit. In fact I think 666 Devil Dogs encourages that. Just because players are friends with each other doesn't mean they will ultimately play better, it may mean that they have a better social experience overall.

The reason I am bringing this up and kind of being a pain in the ass is that when developers ask for feedback, I want to be more than just "large outfits ruin my fun".

This game is an MMO FPS, which in my opinion stresses the FPS more than the MMO. What I am curious to see if all of the smaller TR and Vanu outfits that are on the same server can ban together to break the zerg (if they are true zerg) we will find out a couple of things.

1) It truly would be the numbers, if you have comparable numbers on the side of smaller outfits that are bound together by alliance, vs one very large outfit and the alliance wins, then we can determine that the large outfit is only useful because of their numbers, and not the quality of their firepower.

2) If the alliance loses (i.e. status quo remains), and numbers weren't an issue, than I think each outfit/player might have to do some "soul searching" to figure why they are not getting the success that they feel they deserve.

3) We would find out if it is better to have one hive mind, or several different outfits that share a common goals, but how they reach that goal is up to them. So in other words the "what" is the same and the "how" is different. Or if there will be no difference at all and there is just preference.

For example, we are having an Ops night vs. Brit this Friday. It will be our alliance vs Brit (as best we can do it, as there are no instances in PS2). I am eager to find out a few things. First, the first time I even saw BRIT was the other night when Sentinels were having a skirmish with them. (I killed TotalBiscuit 4 times w00t w00t ) Also if they are as large as they say they are, I am wondering myself how the alliance will do in an Ops vs Ops scenario if you will. Which will be difficult to ultimately determine as we can't control who gets involved in the fight, and for all we know NC can try to smash what we will be fighting over.

However I think it will be a great time, and I am curious if our united but independent outfits can compete against 1 large outfit. And if thats the case, perhaps that for now, smaller outfits can solve the "zerg" problem socially, rather than depend on the developers to make changes that may not even work anyway.

Total Biscuit and Brit can raise over 500+ members our alliance is hoping for a few hundred at best so its still going to be a massive zergfit against a coalition with less numbers. Xen officers and other alliance leaders have a few idea's to stem the numbers problem but we shall see.

[FireWater]

Well if the zerg is about power/certs, we just need to take that away from them.

It sounds like zergs are generally fickle, and if they don't get their needs fed quickly, they will disperse.

Either way I am going to stream it, and I am looking forward to it.

[Srixun]

The answer to this, imo... Bring back battle islands. I loved those.

[Rockit]

Originally Posted by Srixun

The answer to this, imo... Bring back battle islands. I loved those.

Probably not a bad idea actually. No Libs, no MBTs and smaller fight areas would be interesting. Maybe limit other things as well like rocket pods and HE Lightning configurations.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

For all of my support of PSU, I have to say that Hamma's Tweet that 1600+ member outfits are "trash" is higly offensive. I am rarely frank, but, this is completely ignorant and it may suck that a large "zergfit" is ruining your fun on your server, but that does not represent others. Sure, I know they are out there. I have many alts and I get random outfit invites on them, but don't lump all large outfits together. Planetside 2 is about offering the large scale and that is fuking cool. Find your role, but dont b1tch because you cannot stop the 600 guys moving on you. Honestly, <3 Hamma, but this is so whiney it's crap to even respond. Get creative, grow some balls and farm those fuks. We do not bitcch, we equip to win and overcome.

He was 100 % rigth to state thats , i was already putting this problem on the spotligth even way before the game gone live , Most players in all those Zergsfits are trash its true its factual

the thing is no matter how good you are and how good and well organised your team mates are , the Zerginess will win because you have to reload , you have to figth agains laggy foreign peoples while their (( non laggy zergs )) shoot at you etc...etc...

Steam rolling is simple its taking massive numbers of peoples and then roll them out over a inferior numbers of mostly unprepare peoples

And most if not all those zergsfits stemrolls and lock half empty continents and RUINS the experience for most players who enjoy big battles yes but NOT STEAM ROLLING of Zergs

I think Hamma gain a lots of respect for most peoples , if some Zergfits get offended , its mostly because this truth hurt


Stay true Hamma and say whats you really think

[Hamma]

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

For all of my support of PSU, I have to say that Hamma's Tweet that 1600+ member outfits are "trash" is higly offensive. I am rarely frank, but, this is completely ignorant and it may suck that a large "zergfit" is ruining your fun on your server, but that does not represent others. Sure, I know they are out there. I have many alts and I get random outfit invites on them, but don't lump all large outfits together. Planetside 2 is about offering the large scale and that is fuking cool. Find your role, but dont b1tch because you cannot stop the 600 guys moving on you. Honestly, <3 Hamma, but this is so whiney it's crap to even respond. Get creative, grow some balls and farm those fuks. We do not bitcch, we equip to win and overcome.

.....

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

As I said, it is a blanket statement that includes us. Being organized and coordinated, this offended me.

Remember in my video when I said not all large outfits suck? Some actually aren't zergs? I could have been referring to your outfit you know but apparently you fail at seeing the big picture.

Usually if you are over 1600 players you are spam /inviting. You aren't an outfit, you are a zerg.

Instead of derailing my thread that focuses on a hugely important issue for your own personal reasons why don't you try just not posting. For some reason you have always thought I am out to target you which couldn't be further from the truth. You cant deny there are problems with this game and there are literally no tactics involved. Not everyone wants to "Farm" the enemy 16 hours a day.

Now let's get this thread back on track shall we? Thanks!

[ringring]

TBH, I think this thread has had it's day. Everything relevant has been said, often multiple times and it's starting to drift of topic with some writing justifications of their outfits when it's really not necessary.

Game mechanics was ultimately the topic.

[robocpf1]

Originally Posted by ringring

TBH, I think this thread has had it's day. Everything relevant has been said, often multiple times and it's starting to drift of topic with some writing justifications of their outfits when it's really not necessary.

Game mechanics was ultimately the topic.

Originally Posted by Hamma

First off let me start this thread by saying this is NOT an attack on specific outfits. I will not allow people to argue about specific outfits, this discussion is about the size of outfits in general and whether or not you think they hurt the game. Also, I don't want to hear bs like "ohh you're doing it wrong" etc.

If people stopped attacking each others' outfits and then other people ignored those people, we could actually get more great discussion out of this. Ignore outfit names completely, like Hamma asked us to in the original post.

Maybe don't even use your own outfit as an example, that just draws in the flames. Guys, I know you want to jump to defend your outfit, I do it, too. You don't like seeing some nobody or even a somebody trashing your friends and comrades, I get it. But their opinion about YOU and YOUR outfit isn't relevant unless you leap at their throats. The only winning move is not to play. Learn this.

Here are the facts: Large outfits will not become less successful or change because any of you think they (we) are "zergs". It doesn't matter. It's a non-issue. We're here for the long haul and we're not going to change. We have the support of our members and honestly, if we have that, we don't care about the rest.

Small outfits had a great place in PS1, because many times they were (and are, in PS2) organized and tactical - and even when a large outfit is organized and tries to play by these outfits' "rules" - which are all BS anyway and don't actually exist by the way - people can't see the forest through the trees and only see the numbers.

But in PS1, both outfits had a place. Both outfits had achievements and could flame each other and develop rivalries that mattered. And that's good for the game!

So we're at an impasse. And we've been at this impasse for TEN F***ING YEARS, GIVE IT A BREAK. The problem is, PS2 doesn't have this, small outfits can't do as much, so there's frustration.

Help this game grow or GTFO of this thread, in my honest opinion. Leave your outfits at the door. I will too.

[Rockit]

Well clearly what is missing for smaller groups to be effective is smaller objectives which are impactful to the larger groups operations. Denial of important resources, base benefits, that kind of thing, but these areas need to be very defensible for the smaller groups to hold off the impending throng they will attract. Could probably use more CE elements and such as well. Let me go back over the previous 25 pages (sigh) and see what others have said.

EDIT: Yeah screw that , you guys hit on that pretty early on. Hey it's one thing to roll 20 people when the pop limit was 400 per cont and call yourselves small but 20 of 2000 you are microscopic. Just a victim of scale. I like that guy's idea of battle islands where maybe a cont could be divided in 1/4 but still behave as one in the scheme of things. So then you would get back to 20 or 500 which is similar to the days of old. Maybe have weapon type limitations as well as was on Oshur. Would be a refreshing change I think.

[robocpf1]

Originally Posted by Rockit

Well clearly what is missing for smaller groups to be effective is smaller objectives which are impactful to the larger groups operations. Denial of important resources, base benefits, that kind of thing, but these areas need to be very defensible for the smaller groups to hold off the impending throng they will attract. Could probably use more CE elements and such as well. Let me go back over the previous 25 pages (sigh) and see what others have said.

EDIT: Yeah screw that , you guys hit on that pretty early on. Hey it's one thing to roll 20 people when the pop limit was 400 per cont and call yourselves small but 20 of 2000 you are microscopic. Just a victim of scale. I like that guy's idea of battle islands where maybe a cont could be divided in 1/4 but still behave as one in the scheme of things. So then you would get back to 20 or 500 which is similar to the days of old. Maybe have weapon type limitations as well as was on old Oshur. Would be a refreshing change I think.

Being successful in a small outfit doesn't necessarily entail winning against a large zerg. Even the best small outfits of PS1 couldn't always win every engagement. They helped defeat us, on an empire scale, through delaying, stalling, getting that last minute resecure and screwing the rest of us up for another 15 minutes while we twiddled our thumbs. They screwed us by keeping our tech generator down for twenty minutes. They screwed us up by placing bombs on frequent drop zones and wiping out our gal drops. They screwed us up by finding our AMSes and then chipping away at us, killing two or three of us with superior individual skill.

They picked their fights instead of fighting everything.

The successful large outfits had ways to combat that, protocols and backup plans, fallbacks and counters. The unsuccessful large outfits didn't have answers to small outfit tactics and were routed.

A successful small outfit controlled the battlefield and fought on their own terms. They forced our hand. They didn't have to actually kill us all to "win" and winning wasn't always about the base being taken.

This isn't about 20 men being able to actually kill 200. It's about winning the battle, and then the war - not always the physical engagement.

And that is what PS2 is missing.

[Rockit]

Originally Posted by robocpf1

Being successful in a small outfit doesn't necessarily entail winning against a large zerg. Even the best small outfits of PS1 couldn't always win every engagement. They helped defeat us, on an empire scale, through delaying, stalling, getting that last minute resecure and screwing the rest of us up for another 15 minutes while we twiddled our thumbs. They screwed us by keeping our tech generator down for twenty minutes. They screwed us up by placing bombs on frequent drop zones and wiping out our gal drops. They screwed us up by finding our AMSes and then chipping away at us, killing two or three of us with superior individual skill.

The successful large outfits had ways to combat that, protocols and backup plans, fallbacks and counters. The unsuccessful large outfits didn't have answers to small outfit tactics and were routed.

A successful small outfit controlled the battlefield and fought on their own terms. They forced our hand. They didn't have to actually kill us all to "win" and winning wasn't always about the base being taken.

This isn't about 20 men being able to actually kill 200. It's about winning the battle, and then the war - not always the physical engagement.

And that is what PS2 is missing.

Yes I know. I was spec ops most times myself. But I would hate to face the numbers the zerg has now with 2 squads and the open buildings as in PS2 and expect to last very long as to have an actual impact on large scale ops. You can either create an area where numbers are more equal or make the areas of denial a fortress and we all know how receptive SOE has been to that. Also, yeah here we go, if you really want to have pinpoint areas of denial you need linearity in battle flow. No I won't use the L-word but something like that would be needed.

[robocpf1]

Originally Posted by Rockit

Yes I know. I was spec ops most times myself. But I would hate to face the numbers the zerg has now with 2 squads and the open buildings as in PS2 and expect to last very long as to have an actual impact on large scale ops. You can either create an area where numbers are more equal or make the areas of denial a fortress and we all know how receptive SOE has been to that. Also, yeah here we go, if you really want to have pinpoint areas of denial you need linearity in battle flow. No I won't use the L-word but something like that would be needed.

Oh I wasn't saying your idea was wrong, I was just trying to dispel the larger notion that population and size is the biggest problem.

[Emperor Newt]

I really like TBs stuff but if these shots were the most action packed ones to choose for this video then it gets the idea behind this thread and the discussions that came out of it across pretty damn well.
It surely wasn't intended but it somehow fits so incredibly well in here, although people not knowing about this thread most likely wouldn't notice. For people who have no idea about PS this might actually look pretty awesome, granted.

[Rockit]

Originally Posted by robocpf1

Oh I wasn't saying your idea was wrong, I was just trying to dispel the larger notion that population and size is the biggest problem.

It is a matter of population differential between spec ops and overall enemy pop, not necessarily outfits. If I took 20 to drop the gen and hold it down between the enemy tech and the frontlines I wouldn't expect some large organized outfit to respond but rather a conglomeration of the entire empire. They would clear us out quickly and move on. Problem is with pops and overall game design really as you all know well. Less pop per cont or sub cont., defensible bases and directed fights via a base interlink structure and you have something for all to enjoy. SOE marketing could still claim 2K per cont but reality is 500 in smaller sub cont with overall impact to the meta-game as a single cont. I don't know, just kicking around ideas.

[outsider]

Well the solutions can still be found in PS1.

The benefits of small outfits is that they could do things around the fringes of the big fights that would benefit their empires, without taking too many numbers away from the main conflict.

The incentive for waging the big fights was the dual xp system, CR xp was the carrot that rewarded the organisers of the fight and kept the fight going. The larger the fight, the bigger the CR xp. With only cert gain as the driver for conflict, large outfits see no reason to leave the steamrolling mindset, as there are no unique benefit in defending ( and if you can get greater cert gain in defending, like during the tech test, than they will stop attacking )

Once the larger outfits on every server have rewards that they can only get from defending bases, than they will want to manipulate the front lines to funnel the fights into big base defense scenarios to maximise those rewards ( instead of rolling out of the bases while the enemy is rolling in from the other side after the cap )

As per my previous post, once large outfits have unique unlockable benefits gained by staying and defending territory, than there is space for the small outfits to harrase on the fringes of the commited fight. Small outfits can't do anything meaningfull when the fight is: large outfit rolls in, caps, leaves.

The main element that is missing is the dual xp approach that offer distinct separate benefits. One for the player and the other one for the outfit.

To give small outfits purpose we have to fix large outfits first by giving the game a reason to defend. You can't use the same carrot, you have to use different carrots.

Say the upcoming Heavy battle tank is an outfit only unlock, the large outfit focuses on creating defense objectives to gain "outfit certs". Once the outfit buys HBT than the outfit members use their certs to upgrade it and personalise it. This gives the outfit reason to attack and reason to defend.

note: I know I am repeating myself in this post with elements from the last post. But I got no response from my previous post. Which means I must not have explained myself well enough. But I really think the dual xp system is a winner.