Why K:D, Deaths, streaks and other stats are bad, and how PS2 can evolve the genre - Page 5

ArmedZealot · 2012-03-07, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by MrBloodworth

They are removing everything team based to conform to a completely different kind of shooter. The kind that encourages soloists.

What are they removing? 2 Man tanks? BFD. Thats about the only removal that has caused PS2 to encourage soloing.

MrBloodworth · 2012-03-07, 02:44 PM

I would rather see empire, outfit, or squad based tracking. The individual should be left to session based games.

MrBloodworth · 2012-03-07, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

What are they removing? 2 Man tanks? BFD. Thats about the only removal that has caused PS2 to encourage soloing.

You are joking?

VioletZero · 2012-03-07, 02:45 PM

I think what this comes down to is that there's no all important stat for PS2.

The stat tracking should be incredibly detailed and the kills should be an afterthought compared to everything else.

Raymac · 2012-03-07, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

I didn't say the entire game degenerates to deathmatch, but if that's what the devs encourage, that's what people will tend to do.

Yes you did say that, or rather, as I said, you inferred it.

Originally Posted by Malorn

What about all the added enjoyment of everyone else in the game becuase it doesn't degenerate into deathmatch?

But that is really just a side point and we can move past it.

As to your main point, I do totally 100% agree with you that other stats are much more important to Planetside and should be promoted, and the ideas you have put forward are great ones. However, we can do that without throwing out the K/D stat that nearly every gamer out there comes to expect. Let's not get too elitist now and remember the desires of the proletariat.

Figment · 2012-03-07, 02:46 PM

"K/D is everywhere so it should be in"

Argument ad numerum.

"Summer blockbusters should not have good plots, because all other summer blockbusters don't have good plots, even if it would make it a much better movie and a much better blockbuster, we should use the same formula as everyone else or risk failure."

Ballsy, isn't it.

Malorn is 100% correct. I've always been an opponent of the K/D stat. K I don't mind. When K/D was introduced, it literally changed PS1 combat for the worse, because suddenly people wern't prepared to risk getting shot. They stopped pushing together and started waiting for someone else to draw fire first.

I'm not saying that behaviour was never there in the first place, but it tripled if not quadrupled within a week of the K/D introduction in my experience.

Something similar happened when Merit Kill Streaks were introduced.

ArmedZealot · 2012-03-07, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Gandhi

When did I say that?

Originally Posted by Gandhi

Too bad. I think that could have been a really good game too.

You are implying that Planetside 2 is a game that you wont have fun. Because that is what a really good game is. Why would you play a game, and pay for one, that didn't make you have fun?

Zhane · 2012-03-07, 02:47 PM

I agree with everything Malorn said, but it's far from game-breaking and won't hurt a thing if it doesn't change.

EVILoHOMER · 2012-03-07, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by VioletZero

I think what this comes down to is that there's no all important stat for PS2.

The stat tracking should be incredibly detailed and the kills should be an afterthought compared to everything else.

Surely the kills are the main thing seeing as it is an FPS and if you kill no one you cannot win.

VioletZero · 2012-03-07, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by EVILoHOMER

Surely the kills are the main thing seeing as it is an FPS and if you kill no one you cannot win.

But you can contribute a great deal to a win without killing.

And a lot of the time, the best way to win involves less kills.

Figment · 2012-03-07, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by EVILoHOMER

Surely the kills are the main thing seeing as it is an FPS and if you kill no one you cannot win.

Base and facility capturing can be considered more important.

If you only think in terms of FPS, bases should not need to be captured at all. They should just spawn troops. Troops are in the way of your objective.

PlanetSide can therefore be considered to be more of a strategy game than a pure FPS. Obtaining strategic objectives can thus be considered more important than kills.

Obsessing over kills is something for simpleminded people anyway. I'll gladly get shot 10 times if it means I win in the long run and only need to kill them once before they realise they just lost.

Gandhi · 2012-03-07, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

You are implying that Planetside 2 is a game that you wont have fun. Because that is what a really good game is. Why would you play a game, and pay for one, that didn't make you have fun?

Then you misunderstood. I actually said it would probably be fun, but that the other game I was imagining would have been fun too. Even if it's not my dream game PS2 is still the closest to it.

ArmedZealot · 2012-03-07, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by MrBloodworth

You are joking?

No I really am not. The core of Planetside 1 remains in Planetside 2. This core play encourages team play regardless of stat tracking and K/D ratios. To remove "Everything that encourages teamplay" would be to remove all team objectives from Planetside 2.

You are getting your panties in a wad because you have rose tinted sunglasses when looking at Planetside 1. A game that wouldn't cut it in today's market and would leave us all with another dead husk in 4 years after people get bored and the only ones that remain are bittervets.

Skitrel · 2012-03-07, 02:52 PM

Deaths are not the problem, let's get this straight, it isn't the deaths part of the k:d ratio that causes stat whoring, it's the kills part.

Kills in arena based shooters like Call of Duty, Unreal, Halo, CS and so on, they are the measure of a battle, the goal is to kill the other side and therefore kills are the "goal".

In a game like Planetside, kills are not the goal. Objectives are the goal. That however does not mean that we should also remove the deaths portion of the equation. Not dying is something that we should definitely be promoting. I don't want people kamikaze running into impossible situations hoping to drop 1 enemy at a time with each attempt, it's just stupid and it's nowhere near as fun as the tactical, strategic combat you get from a group that is actively trying to preserve their lives as much as take the objective.

So, in regards to that there's an obvious solution to this problem. We replace the "goal" part of the equation to suit Planetside, an objective game.

Score : Deaths should be the new ratio. Make kills a very low importance metric, deep within stats pages where it's less in the player's face, place SCORE

EATH larger, bolder and of the most eye catching prominence to the player.

You can positively reinforce this by showing the player their score:death in game when they take an objective as part of an assault, show their score:death increase with a pop up much like the xp pop ups. Provided this score is only considered over let's say a 50-100 hour history of the player's in game play time then it can be a strong metric for how well the player can earn score for their side while preserving their life.

All support and objective based points should earn SIGNIFICANTLY more score than kills. Not just a little bit more, a LOT more, to reinforce that kills aren't the important thing.

In battlefield kills had SOME importance and thus the score earned for kills in BF3 wasn't too much less than other things you do, because of tickets. Planetside does not have tickets, therefore kills are of significantly less importance and the score kills earn as a result should reflect this.

TL;DR: Score : Death - The new metric that should be psychologically reinforced into players in a number of ways, to promote the activity and type of play that would be best for the game. Players make a game, manipulate them into playing it how it should be played through as many methods as possible, make kills worth very little score as they're really not the objective whatsoever.

Gelnika · 2012-03-07, 02:55 PM

Stat whoring comes in all forms, not just doing lame things like spawn camping. BF2 was known for its infamous stat padding where you'd literally just throw grenades and get people to resupplyyou, while someone on the other team conspired to come and shoot them and the medic would revive them all. Rinse and repeat and mega-score is sure to be yours.

This is not to try and refute the OP's main point, just pointing out that farming is not as simple as just racking up kills.

While I would certainly like to know my KD ratio and various others, I agree that there would be equal if not greater importance (visually and tangibly) placed on direct teamwork related stats such as how many people have dropped or spawned from your Galaxy and time spent defending bases under attack.