Limited Ammo

Sirisian · 2011-09-02, 02:24 AM

Okay this is going to sound odd, but do you guys like having a lot of ammo in games where it's not a problem or do you prefer where every shot counts and ammo is a tactical resource.

To put this in perspective pretend in PS2 if you chose an MA rifle for your loadout it gave you the option of 0 to 4 extra magazines. You could grab a pistol and get 0 to 5 extra magazines etc.

Ignore realism for a second and imagine a game where you're playing with artificial limitations on ammo capacity to control how players use weapons.

This opens up the idea of ammo sharing on the battlefield. That is the ability to "throw" magazines to your friendlies if they say "I'm out of ammo".

The bigger picture is the ability to force someone that is fighting for a while to switch weapons and tactics. The "I only have 20 rounds left in my rifle so I'll use my pistol for a bit" kind of thinking". Do you think this kind of thinking should be in the game?

(Also I get that some people want fast TTKs, fast movement, fast respawns so you might be thinking "I won't ever need more than a few bullets before I die", but pretend that players stay alive for more than a minute and that these kinds of tactical ideas are possible).

Any thoughts on this? (Snipers I believe felt the limited ammo sometimes depending on their inventory in PS1, but I'd be suggesting making that a more universal "feature").

(Also there would still be a limitation to the total items. Say each item had a cost. You could hold 4 magazines for cost of 8 and 2 out of 5 fragment grenades for a cost of 4 or something where there would be a maximum load out cost. Some people would try to use a weight system, but a cost system helps to describe gameplay limitations also if there are special rules about not having something if you have another item. Like if a medkit was 1 cost for support items and a magazine was 2 cost for ammo items, a grenade is 1 cost for explosive items etc. It could be fairly complicated).

Bags · 2011-09-02, 02:26 AM

I like a good balance. I don't like infinite ammo, but I don't like running out of ammo after a clip or two. I think Planetside hit the balance fairly well.

But I definitely don't want to have to use a pistol. I find them boring.

Krowe · 2011-09-02, 08:03 AM

Nah

Sirisian · 2011-09-02, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Bags

But I definitely don't want to have to use a pistol. I find them boring.

Why are they boring? Is it because they're not MA/HA or is it because of their implementation in PS1 or something else?

Originally Posted by Krowe

Nah

Could you explain why you like having enough ammo? Is it for less reliance on other players? I'm normally against forced teamwork by the way so I can understand your feelings if you feel that way.

One reason for this would be adding ammo drops by engineers. Like a deployable ammo dispenser. (Explained by nanite generation or something). Snipers and engineers would travel in packs and having an engineer around in a long fight would be invaluable.

Krowe · 2011-09-02, 01:17 PM

The system that was in place did very well. The only thing I might want is the option to give ammo to another player without dropping it on the ground.

But forcing limitations on people isn't really all that great.

Logit · 2011-09-02, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Bags

I like a good balance. I don't like infinite ammo, but I don't like running out of ammo after a clip or two. I think Planetside hit the balance fairly well.

But I definitely don't want to have to use a pistol. I find them boring.

This.

Planetside provided you the space to carry a sufficient amount of ammo so that you weren't at a terminal every 2 minutes. This is why I liked the inventory system so much. If you desired enough ammo to run and gun for awhile you could do that. If you wanted a mix, you could do that as well.

All this premade nonsense makes me nerdrage a bit.

EASyEightyEight · 2011-09-02, 04:41 PM

I don't want unlimited ammo (though an idiot running and spamming rounds is just begging to get shot) but I don't want a situation where I spend 60 rounds and I realize I have no more magazines on my belt. I like having ample amounts of ammunition. If we're capable of somehow scavenging for ammo in the field, or there just happens to be a class that tosses infinite numbers of packs of ammo (on a cooldown of some sort) then we can get away with a lower total.

I'd say I'm happiest with 4-5 spare magazines, with 6 being the upper limit. Beyond that number, I don't feel too compelled to make my shots count.

Graywolves · 2011-09-02, 06:02 PM

Unlimited ammo is silly for a large scale massive warfare game. If you are doing something like a Gen hold it is a key factor. One time a friend and I were just zerging up a hill and we kept rezzing eachother and I eventually ran low on ammo so we had to loot enemies. I love that feeling in the game of getting low, it makes me feel like I was alive forever and that I'm awesome.

Unlimited ammo is too much of a convenience (in the lazy way) and leads to avoidable situations just by limiting ammo. A Skyguard and other vehicles need ammo eventually.

And I liked the current inventory system for this as well, I noticed I was running out of cycler ammo much sooner compared to my sweeper (I actually never run out on my sweeper) so I replaced some of my sweeper ammo with cycler ammo.

NewSith · 2011-09-02, 06:03 PM

I'm still unsure. I mean if it's to be [sniper rifle+pistol] (of which I'm totally against), then I say more ammo for the sniper rifle.

If it's going to be [sniper rifle+secondary primary weapon of some sort (SMG for instance)] then I say sniper ammo should be cut. It has everything to do with the balancing. Making snipers "Go there, sit, shoot, snipe, look around, kill close range, snipe again" 'till the second bending is not a good way to bring the class into game.

Sirisian · 2011-09-03, 12:08 AM

Guys I never mentioned unlimited ammo. I was simply comparing Planetside's "I pretty much never run out of ammo" approach to an "if I fight for a while I will run out of ammo after 4 to 6 clips and will require a restock from somewhere (use your imagination, ammo drops from the sky, engineer deployables, AMS, galaxies and countless other ideas).

Originally Posted by Graywolves

A Skyguard and other vehicles need ammo eventually.

I was going to leave vehicles out of this since I discussed the effects of balancing vehicles via the limited ammo idea in another thread.

Originally Posted by Graywolves

And I liked the current inventory system for this as well, I noticed I was running out of cycler ammo much sooner compared to my sweeper (I actually never run out on my sweeper) so I replaced some of my sweeper ammo with cycler ammo.

The idea would be that under extended use you'd run out of ammo after a few clips. (With the faster TTK I'm not sure how to calculate how many kills that is. In the original it was along the line of 1.5 ish per clip so that might skew perceptions).

Originally Posted by NewSith

I'm still unsure. I mean if it's to be [sniper rifle+pistol] (of which I'm totally against), then I say more ammo for the sniper rifle.

If it's going to be [sniper rifle+secondary primary weapon of some sort (SMG for instance)] then I say sniper ammo should be cut. It has everything to do with the balancing. Making snipers "Go there, sit, shoot, snipe, look around, kill close range, snipe again" 'till the second bending is not a good way to bring the class into game.

I think that might be another conversation entirely on balancing.

Regarding a sniper I'd limit it to a decent number of rounds, but enough so that a player runs out after a few minutes. An engineer supporting a group of snipers by deploying an ammo dispenser would be ideal.

Basically if a single sniper is by himself he couldn't trap people inside and a person using MA couldn't spray and pray at a door. You'd end up with people making each round count.

Originally Posted by Krowe

But forcing limitations on people isn't really all that great.

So you want unlimited ammo? I'm basically thinking if you had a weapon and never really ran out of ammo then you essentially had unlimited ammo for all intents and purposes.

I could be wrong that making the scenario where you run out of primary ammo on an HA/MA weapon more common is a good thing. Some people probably enjoy having a lot of ammo. Just imagine the game with a more limited ammo system and how you would see scenarios. Describe them if you see horrible situations arising.

I'm imagining spawning then fighting for a while with a Punisher (if it exists. haven't paid much attention) and lining up a shot on someone and firing a few times. After killing 6 people with my 5 clips (just a guess) I notice I need ammo and either find an engineer that's dropped ammo, call in an ammo pod (is this lame?), or switch to a side arm.

(Also side thing that isn't important really, but camping would become difficult without a way to resupply. Though camping out really only happened in the generator as a valid tactic).

Mezorin · 2011-09-03, 02:37 AM

Provided that there are ways to 'ammo up' other players via class abilities, I figure having 3 or 4 spare clips of gauss rifle ammunition is reasonable. You have enough rounds to make some kills, but can't just mindlessly piss away ammunition forever. MAXes, AV troopers, or machine gunners requiring some sort of engineer resupply ability would also limit their OPness as they'd constantly be low on ammo if they were not being 'fed'. Engineer resupplies, stealing enemy weapons, or even some sort of 'scavanger' infantry ability could be put in, depending on how the devs want to balance out the game.

krnasaur · 2011-09-03, 02:52 AM

one of the fun parts of planetside was the balance of ammo VS utility. I could carry a REK or 50 extra bullets, a CUD or 50 extra bullets. i could lose 16 JH ammo for more gauss ammo, you had the choice to choose what you wanted for that situation.

I feel like planetside 1's inv system was special. It did slow down combat, but it made combat that much more enjoyable.

Now for planetside 2, You sould be able to choose how much ammo as a trade-off. maybe like the SOE game "Infantry" (that game was an absolute gem btw) not an actual "inventory" but every item, guns, ammo, and utility items all took up weight, and you had to balance your weight

Krowe · 2011-09-03, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

So you want unlimited ammo?

No, I just don't want that 5 clips max idea. If people want to carry ammo over something more situational, let them.

Zulthus · 2011-09-03, 02:12 PM

I'd really want something like Battlefield-style ammo. If you reload with 15/30 bullets left in your clip, you lose 15 bullets. It'll have people conserve ammo and make their shots count.

CutterJohn · 2011-09-03, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by krnasaur

Now for planetside 2, You sould be able to choose how much ammo as a trade-off. maybe like the SOE game "Infantry" (that game was an absolute gem btw) not an actual "inventory" but every item, guns, ammo, and utility items all took up weight, and you had to balance your weight

This, pretty much. Just have a slider that adjusts how much ammo you want of a particular variety.

Hypothetical medic loadout:

Grenades: 2lbs/grenade
Pistol: 20 rounds/lb
Med app: 50 units/lb
MA Rifle: 15 rounds/lb

Now lets pretend its a 20lb ammo limit.

So you might carry 2 grenades, 40 rounds pistol ammo, 300 units heal goo, 120 rounds of MA. Or just go with 100 units of heal goo and take an extra grenade and 30 more rounds of MA ammo.

Allows for some variation in ammo you can carry, but keeps the inventory from being used for spare tools/weapons, and no jigsawing.