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Old 2003-01-02, 07:20 AM   [Ignore Me] #76
Serbitar
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hmm seems like this topic is being talked to death by overlength posts . . .
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Old 2003-01-02, 07:57 AM   [Ignore Me] #77
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Yes Indeed, even I only skimmed all that
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Old 2003-01-02, 08:31 AM   [Ignore Me] #78
Kriege
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Originally posted by Blitzkrieg
It could be like in Deus Ex
Sigh...
I miss that game
Hi Mr. BlitzKrieg , Why do I have part of your name and part of your sig effect ?(I'll take the god part of your sig btw, You can keep the man one )
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Old 2003-01-02, 10:47 AM   [Ignore Me] #79
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I guess we're just all going to have to agree to disagree. There's not right or wrong answer to this argument. I think that some of these "skilled" professions should actually take some skill instead of being completely newbie friendly. Even medics and engineers. With hackers it's a relatively easy thing to picture with puzzles, with the other two i don't have any suggestions.
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Old 2003-01-02, 10:48 AM   [Ignore Me] #80
Blitzkrieg
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Originally posted by Kriege
Hi Mr. BlitzKrieg , Why do I have part of your name and part of your sig effect ?(I'll take the god part of your sig btw, You can keep the man one )
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Old 2003-01-02, 12:57 PM   [Ignore Me] #81
Warborn
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Well, I wasn't expecting anyone to say "Warborn, you're right, I didn't look at it from that perspective". That's not how people work online. Better chance of someone who "loses" to simply not reply than there is for an actual resolution to be achieved. Regardless, you will understand when you actually experience it. Trust me.
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Old 2003-01-02, 07:23 PM   [Ignore Me] #82
Arthell
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It was 5am, wasnt going to sleep and was bored.

Sue me.
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Old 2003-01-02, 08:16 PM   [Ignore Me] #83
Feynn
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To me the gist of this argument is some people saying that they would like to see "hacking" require some specialty skill as opposed to just dumping points into it and Warborn saying that the rest of the game is fun without hacking requiring actual skills.

The FAQ has an entry that says:

"What roles can a player assume?
Anything they can imagine, pretty much. Sniper, Driver, Pilot, Hacker, Medic, Heavy armor, Skirmisher, Scout, Commander, Tactician, Engineer...and more."

If hacking indeed only involves holding a button down CS style, then it seems to me it doesn't belong on this list. Why? Because JoeBlow can become known the world over for his sniping skills, his driving skills, his piloting skills, etc. etc., but I have yet to see one example of how you can build a reputation for being a good hacker.

The key difference being that the other roles require player skills beyond the in game certification, whereas hacking does not.
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Old 2003-01-02, 08:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #84
CDaws
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The crossing wires thing is a cool idea Arthell. Remindes me of hot wirering cars.
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Old 2003-01-02, 09:21 PM   [Ignore Me] #85
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Angry you guys never listen to warborn


"What roles can a player assume?
Anything they can imagine, pretty much. Sniper, Driver, Pilot, Hacker, Medic, Heavy armor, Skirmisher, Scout, Commander, Tactician, Engineer...and more."

If hacking indeed only involves holding a button down CS style, then it seems to me it doesn't belong on this list. Why? Because JoeBlow can become known the world over for his sniping skills, his driving skills, his piloting skills, etc. etc., but I have yet to see one example of how you can build a reputation for being a good hacker.
Well, if you're right, what about medics, engineers, and scouts? By your reasoning they shouldn't be on there either; unless you want the medic trying to revive you to have to go through a complex process to sew a wound back up. Or maybe the engineers could perform that little wire game to fix the tank you're trying to destroy the front line with, and what the hell would a scout do to make it more difficult and make sense?

The reason that these roles are difficult to do is because the people that perform them already have to be able to multiclass and be effective at many things. Medics have to keep a low profile, move quickly and help their teammates with cover fire when they are not dying to be good, and enginners have to do the same. Scouts have to actually get to a good vantage point, and stay hidden to relay positions, and hackers have to get into the base either by force or by stealth. None of these core roles are difficult at all. However, they do require skill to perform because of the secondary skills needed to get the job done.

Contrary to what you believe, people WILL be known for hacking bases, because if they are good they will do it repeatedly and people WILL notice. Medics and engineers are the same, if they are always bring you back to life then you are going to always want them around and you WILL tell other people the same. And scouts WILL become famous only if they can find the best spots, keep them, and give the commanders minutes notice of problems to come. Fame WILL found in any role, even if it doesn't seem like it to you. Maybe thats because you can't see anyone being able to have the skills and master them, but it WILL happen.

Before I started writing this post, I was pretty much between sides, but now I have really thought about it and honestly don't see a need for anything extra. Yes the ideas could be added, and yes they could be very effective, if you get a good reward; however, I believe that it will simply drive away more newbies that just need positive reinforcement (which doesn't seem to be passed around much here) to become better one day.

Well *pant, pant* I'm done.

Flame on..........
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Old 2003-01-02, 10:15 PM   [Ignore Me] #86
io
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Yeah but you're forgetting a key item in your logic. Yes medics, engineers and scouts will have pretty much the same job as a hacker but the 1 thing you forgot is all those people can do it 500 times a day.

Explanation: If you're a good medic, you know how to keep a low profile and quickly deal with any threats and also know where to go when you are needed you might be able to do your job (i.e. heal/revive someone) about (let's keep it extremely low) 10 times in 1 hour. Now, same skill level for a hacker, no matter how good he is there is only a certain number of bases he can hack, there's no way he can hack succesfuly hack a base 10 times a day let alone in 1 hour. So each mission should be much more fun and challenging since he will only have a few unlike a medic or engineer who can do his job non-stop all day.

Also every time a hacker succesfuly hacks a base it's a major victory, every time a medic heals someone it's just 1 more man out there with limited ammo, it's not a whole base and it won't affect the war as much. And the hacker will also have a much much more hard time doing his job than a medic, a medic can find casualties anywhere, he might not even be in the heat of the battle but to hack the hacker has to actually go into enemy terrain and avoid and/or fight off threats. It's way more dangerous. So again, bigger reward should equal more skill required and more fun involved.

And besides i'm all for making hacking a more fun and challenging process but who said i wouldn't be for medic and engineers either? I'd think it would be cool to have the same type of thing we are saying now for medics and engineers. (although medics would be a bit harder to implement without requiring people to know medical info )

Everything else in PS is skill-based, from piloting to grunt work while skimming commanding, driving and gunning. If you're good you win, if not you lose. I don't see why the other roles shouldn't be either.
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Old 2003-01-02, 10:39 PM   [Ignore Me] #87
Warborn
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Dio, you're acting as if being a "hacker" involves only one thing: Hacking. There is no such thing as being someone who Hacks and nothing else, as Duritz said. There are a lot of secondary (or rather, primary) skills involved with being someone who'd hack a base. Hacking is just as basic in terms of character ability as would be throwing a grenade. It's simply a tool in one's arsenal, and doesn't need to be made more complex, because it's a small part of what your character is.

Anyway, if you don't understand the point Duritz was trying to make, this discussion is at an end, because it doesn't get any clearer.
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Old 2003-01-02, 10:43 PM   [Ignore Me] #88
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Yeah but you're forgetting a key item in your logic. Yes medics, engineers and scouts will have pretty much the same job as a hacker but the 1 thing you forgot is all those people can do it 500 times a day.
You have a good point Dio, but how often will a hacker be hacking? If you are attacking a base with a reasonably sized and constructed assault, then the hacker may be attempting to hack a base many, many times in an hour.

Plus, what about tank pilots and gunners? It requires skill to do those jobs, but you can't make a tank last forever and then they have to wait for their time to expire before being able to fight again (only since we're relagating people to specific roles, if not then everyone's roles will be too dynamic to place anywhere specific). They may not be as much of a determinig factor as a hcker is, but its still a comparison.

Also, the main point was that hacker doesn't need more to do because the stuff leading up to the hacking is what is where most of the work is. By making it more difficult the attacks becomer more futile, as less good hackers are around.

Also, with more skill involved you have to deal with more lamers that say they know how to hack, just to piss you off or to get a chance at doing it. Maybe eventually we will weed them out, but then where is the pool of hackers we had? Gone, because they never got a chance to hack and that is because everone only wanted the uber hackers. I do agree that it would add more depth to the game, but to make the game fair and fun to newbies and to give the offense a chance at getting it done the simple way has to be preserved.

And what about the fact that an attacking force always would need a good hacker? If you can only get a hold of one good hacker then everytime he dies will be at least 5 minutes of futile fighting hoping he gets back soon and doesn't die this time. True, you could more easily set up larger console attaacks with that ime, but still you lose time when the enemy could be sending reinforce ments. If there are plenty of hackers because it IS easy to do, then attacking forces fighting will never be in vain, because every few seconds another team will make a run at the control console.

I understand that it would add very much to the gameplay; personally, I kind of like the idea. However, it is not necessary and would be simply killing the spirit behind planetside of letting anyone be what they want to be.

And thx for that comment warborn.
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Old 2003-01-02, 11:04 PM   [Ignore Me] #89
io
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Originally posted by Duritz
You have a good point Dio, but how often will a hacker be hacking? If you are attacking a base with a reasonably sized and constructed assault, then the hacker may be attempting to hack a base many, many times in an hour.
Yeah but the odds of a hacker hacking a base more than 2-3 times in 1 hour are slim. Taking a base won't be easy, you need a lot of manpower to break the defense (well hopefully), it won't be as simple as hopping into a tank or finding people that are wounded.

Plus, what about tank pilots and gunners? It requires skill to do those jobs, but you can't make a tank last forever and then they have to wait for their time to expire before being able to fight again (only since we're relagating people to specific roles, if not then everyone's roles will be too dynamic to place anywhere specific). They may not be as much of a determinig factor as a hcker is, but its still a comparison.
I don't really get your point here. You said yourself "it requires skill" that's what i'm advocating here, that the hacking cert should require skill just like a piloting cert or a gun cert. (also just fyi you most likely won't have to wait too long for a new tank)

Also, the main point was that hacker doesn't need more to do because the stuff leading up to the hacking is what is where most of the work is. By making it more difficult the attacks becomer more futile, as less good hackers are around.
Ah here again you guys focus on the part leading up to the hacking, this has nothing to do with what i'm saying. The hacking cert is my concern and the fact you can get in the enemy base isn't part of the cert, the only thing the cert does affect is the act of hacking which is why i'm sayign the actual act of hacking should require some skill like any other cert.

Also, with more skill involved you have to deal with more lamers that say they know how to hack, just to piss you off or to get a chance at doing it. Maybe eventually we will weed them out, but then where is the pool of hackers we had? Gone, because they never got a chance to hack and that is because everone only wanted the uber hackers. I do agree that it would add more depth to the game, but to make the game fair and fun to newbies and to give the offense a chance at getting it done the simple way has to be preserved.
Ok this argument just doesn't make sense(no offense), by that logic piloting and grunt work should be done by the computer since new comers won't be able to fly as good or aim as good as the "l33t" guy that is pissing everybody off.

And what about the fact that an attacking force always would need a good hacker? If you can only get a hold of one good hacker then everytime he dies will be at least 5 minutes of futile fighting hoping he gets back soon and doesn't die this time. True, you could more easily set up larger console attaacks with that ime, but still you lose time when the enemy could be sending reinforce ments. If there are plenty of hackers because it IS easy to do, then attacking forces fighting will never be in vain, because every few seconds another team will make a run at the control console.
Taking over a base shouldn't be easy. Wouldn't having less hackers just make it more fun??? Which do you prefer having a group of 30 people who all hack which will inturn make hacking the base easy or having 3-4 hackers and having to cover and protect those few hackers while they to their job and make communication and teamwork a key item required to take over a base.

I understand that it would add very much to the gameplay; personally, I kind of like the idea. However, it is not necessary and would be simply killing the spirit behind planetside of letting anyone be what they want to be.
Well first i would like to think the spirit of PS is teamwork, in which case making the hacker role important and precious would only help that spirit come across. Second i never said the hacking part would have to be extremly hard or complicated to discourage new comers, just something skill based so John doe can do it in the usual 1-2mins but Hamma who has been hacking for 5 months now can do it in 30-40secs.

Thanks by the way Duritz, i missed having a debate where the other person doesn't just tell me i'm wrong and i should stfu.
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Old 2003-01-02, 11:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #90
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Dio, answer my max thread, bleh, I can't find the statement that says max's can only carry 1 weapon.
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