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Old 2012-06-17, 12:12 AM   [Ignore Me] #1
p0intman
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Can o' worms: Soul


Originally Posted by AvacadoEight View Post
I would sell my soul.
Right. That should be enough to open this can wide open. However, a few caveats:

The existence or non existence of a soul or anything similar does not mean there are any sort of higher beings. This thread has nothing to do with that.

This is a discussion on the possibility and ramifications of souls, or post-death energy of some kind, whatever you call it, remaining somewhere of significance. Many cultures and areas in the world have stories and myths of ghosts, souls, spirits and so fourth.

Do they exist? This so far has not been proven, or disproven. They could be hallucinations of various kinds, and I would contend that they are just that. The human mind is a powerful and not fully understood device.

With that... your thoughts on ghosts and other kinds of spirit-matter?
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Old 2012-06-17, 04:40 AM   [Ignore Me] #2
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


what definition are we going on here?

Souls in the sense that there is a being (your personality) occupying your body then this has been pretty much disproven with people who have suffered head trauma and now have completely different personalities.
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Old 2012-06-17, 05:03 AM   [Ignore Me] #3
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


Originally Posted by p0intman View Post
...
This is a discussion on the possibility and ramifications of souls, or post-death energy of some kind, whatever you call it, remaining somewhere of significance. Many cultures and areas in the world have stories and myths of ghosts, souls, spirits and so fourth.

Do they exist? This so far has not been proven, or disproven. They could be hallucinations of various kinds, and I would contend that they are just that. The human mind is a powerful and not fully understood device.

With that... your thoughts on ghosts and other kinds of spirit-matter?
I think I'm in that category of people who equate the mind/soul with the pattern of electro-chemical energy in your brain and its changes across time. Assuming we're not living in a simulation, it seems that energy patterns that change themselves in complex ways ( more complex than how an electromagnetic wave self-propagates) require a material medium. By "material" I mean that it requires mass as a medium in order to change from one point in time to the next. Sure, I can store your mental pattern and send it using radio waves, but how does that pattern change in a meaningful life-ish way?
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Old 2012-06-17, 05:13 AM   [Ignore Me] #4
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


Not to mention instable chemistry leading to personality and psychological disorders being treatable with medicines to a certain degree.

'Ghost' sightings can be caused by a sound frequency of around 20Hz which can cause a blurring in vision, particularly in the peripheral vision. As humans want to see patterns in everything, especially instinctively look for human patterns for survival and social reasons, it is not strange people interpret things in something they can relate to. Same with sounds they can't interpret immediately.

Now, this doesn't explain everything away, but my impression would be that if there was such thing as ghosts and souls, we are not seeing enough of them. I also question the credibility of stories of traumatic events leading to ghosts returning elsewhere and perform certain routines or certain things they liked to do, or interact; As all those things are rather demanding on capabilities. Besides, if that were an echo of a soul or bodily energy, why would that be limited to dead humans?

To me ghost routines sound like conditions are met to make a house get into a specific climate state that induces certain observations. Mostly a building constructive thing and I don't mean like Ghostbusters skyscraper architecture.

Last edited by Figment; 2012-06-17 at 05:15 AM.
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Old 2012-06-17, 05:26 AM   [Ignore Me] #5
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


http://www.parascience.org.uk/articles/equip.htm

Scientific ghost hunting! None of this scifi channel "oh oh oh must be a ghost!" stuff.
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Old 2012-06-17, 11:06 AM   [Ignore Me] #6
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


There really hasn't been any rigorously tested evidence to suggest that there is, so I'm going to go ahead and doubt that souls exist until it can be reliably demonstrated that they do.
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Old 2012-06-17, 12:38 PM   [Ignore Me] #7
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


Well, relating this to an other thread, if you alter the chemistry or structure of someone's brain through trauma, or hell, even through simply growing up and becoming an adult, you fundamentally change the "person". Even though we hold the same DNA we did as children, our brains have changed so much that it is only a technicality that we are considered the same individual we were when we were 5 years old, or however old we want to arbitrarily pick.

Similarly, you get a blow sufficiently damaging, or experience hypoxemia for a sufficient duration (3 - 5 minutes), and you will experience brain damage. Or you have a stroke or some other event which causes a non-fatal ischemia and necrosis of brain tissue. Either way, these events can lead to complete changes in personality, behaviour, memory, etc. You can become a totally different person through brain damage.

So, if simply changes to brain structure or chemistry are able to bring about a very dramatic change in personality, how is it that we might expect complete destruction of our brain to enable us to pass on to a new life with our "person" being intact? It is clear that who were are is intrinsically linked to our brains, and yet when we die our brains are destroyed. I do not see any reason to suspect that we would be able to survive death via an unseen "soul" given what we know.
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Old 2012-06-17, 09:23 PM   [Ignore Me] #8
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


I'd like to think there is. But there's many, many more reasons to doubt there is one than to believe there is one.

Our personality is effected by the many environments, situations, family, etc...so maybe the soul is above our own body, personality, ego. It is merely using us to learn and grow.

I also personally like the idea of reincarnation...past lives that shape us.

Having a radical trauma that changes your body's personality would be an experience for your soul to learn and experience from.

I'm mostly thinking outloud. Rambling nonsense

Anywho, to me, it is nice to think that there is a soul after death, but I'm not going to ignore all the logic that leans on the idea that there isn't. So, I respect those opinions that lean on debunking it.
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Old 2012-06-18, 07:36 AM   [Ignore Me] #9
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


Originally Posted by Vecha View Post
I'd like to think there is. But there's many, many more reasons to doubt there is one than to believe there is one.

Our personality is effected by the many environments, situations, family, etc...so maybe the soul is above our own body, personality, ego. It is merely using us to learn and grow.

I also personally like the idea of reincarnation...past lives that shape us.

Having a radical trauma that changes your body's personality would be an experience for your soul to learn and experience from.

I'm mostly thinking outloud. Rambling nonsense

Anywho, to me, it is nice to think that there is a soul after death, but I'm not going to ignore all the logic that leans on the idea that there isn't. So, I respect those opinions that lean on debunking it.
To back up the portion I have bolded above, we have scene many instances where damage to the brain can change someone's personality. Either through chemical imbalance or injury, people can find themselves unable to recognize faces or remember names, might lose their short-term or long term memories. We have found that introducing certain elements can improve or strip away the brain's capabilities, thus altering the personality and abilities of the individual.

Are we to believe that at the moment of death that personality is freed from the brain somehow and, what, reverts back to its peek functioning? Everything we understand about consciousness hinges critically on the brain functioning. If you get knocked out cold, it's not like you just lose control of your motor functions and are stuck inside your body, patiently waiting for your brain to reboot. You shut off. You wake up sometime later confused and disoriented.

All of the evidence we have at our disposal suggests that everything we understand about consciousness, our personalities, and our very understanding of existence is fundamentally reliant on the brain's functions, and those functions can be demonstrated to be purely physical. Neuroscientists can isolate specific areas of the brain that are responsible for various things, from moods to motor function, and stimulate them.

There is, however, absolutely no evidence that there is another element at play. A presence that inhabits the body independent of the brain's functions. People who have suffered brain damage and are unable to think, act, or feel as they once did don't retain those abilities somewhere, unusable. They lose them, because the brain lost them.
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Old 2012-06-24, 06:05 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


Soul is defined as something immaterial beyond the bounds of physical universe (not consisting of matter nor energy). We have never seen nor proved something that not either matter or energy, nor could we ever possibly.

As far as I'm concerned it's only an idea, human construct designed to help weak cope with their own mortality or loss of loved ones.
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Old 2012-06-24, 07:20 PM   [Ignore Me] #11
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


Originally Posted by DjEclipse View Post
The soul is the most successful lie ever told, or true.

I believe in a soul, being that nothing ever dies, makes sense to me. Maybe the soul is simply a blueprint. How does the universe know how to create a star? I'm sure there is a man made explanation, but humans are idiots.

And yes nothing ever dies, we're made of atoms we just simply turn into something else. Think about it, if everything died, everything would of died a fuck long time ago. Cycle of life, thats how the universe keeps moving.
Our language can confuse issues sometimes, because the universe is one way, and our language does a flawed job of trying to explain and categorize it all. Forms can be destroyed, but the net sum is always equal to the original.

Really, it's a zero sum game. The entire universe adds up to zero. It always has, and it always well. The positive and negative forces will just take different forms over time, and one of those temporary forms are human brains.

What would make the form of energy and matter that we call a brain be so special anyways? Who are we to say that a group of atoms forming a brain are more than the sum of the parts of a group of atoms that form a cloud of gas? We like to think our brain, mind and "soul" are more important than a cloud of gas, but does that make it so?

I think our brains are just passing transitional stages of matter and energy, and when that matter and energy stops being a brain, it stops being us. The matter and energy that held our form continues on in new forms, but our form is fleeting.

If I have a soul, then everything has a soul, from the entire universe down to each quark, and the term starts to be meaningless. The major question is whether or not anything that makes the human brain significant to us carries on after the brain is gone, and I haven't seen any particularly good reason to think there is.
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Old 2012-06-24, 09:31 PM   [Ignore Me] #12
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


Originally Posted by DjEclipse View Post
How does the universe know how to create a star? I'm sure there is a man made explanation, but humans are idiots.
Says the fellow communicating his thoughts to people around the world via his idiot-made device. We know why stars exist. We know their life-cycle. If you choose to reject human knowledge which is proven to work so well that we are quite literally living in the best moment of human history because of it, you do so arbitrarily.

Souls and afterlives and these sorts of things do not have a scientific basis so far. What you wish to believe about them is your own prerogative. However, to indict human understanding of the natural world because it cannot explain something that is for all intents supernatural is a bit silly. Take solace in whatever belief about the soul you wish, but also realize that when it comes to understanding the behaviour of the real world, scientific inquiry wins every time.
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Old 2012-06-25, 07:25 AM   [Ignore Me] #13
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


Originally Posted by DjEclipse View Post
How does the universe know how to create a star?
And while we're at it, magnets, amirite? How do they work?

And don't talk to me about scientists; motherfuckers be lyin', and gettin' me pissed.
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Old 2012-06-25, 12:41 PM   [Ignore Me] #14
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


Originally Posted by DjEclipse View Post
Not saying anyone is lying. What science and religion does, is cool, but it gets dumb too. "Peak Oil" "Energy Crisis" complete bullshit. We live in a Universe of infinite energy and matter. If the lights go off on Earth, wont be the Universe's fault. Just dumb fucking humans, amirite?
I have no idea if you're trolling. I invoke Insane Clown Posse and you think I'm serious?

Also, what does religion do, exactly? I know what science does, but last I checked religions absorb money and manufacture lies and molested kids, as best I can tell. Oh, they also run some hospitals I guess. Staffed by doctors who probably don't default to exorcisms as first treatment. Anymore.

And another thing... the energy crisis is very much real. And we don't live in a universe of infinite matter and energy... both of those things are found in limited resource. Besides, only something like 5% of the entire universe is made up of energy and matter we can observe. The rest is "dark" and invisible.

Gotta be trollin'.
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Old 2012-06-25, 02:01 PM   [Ignore Me] #15
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Re: Can o' worms: Soul


Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy View Post

Also, what does religion do, exactly? I know what science does, but last I checked religions absorb money and manufacture lies and molested kids, as best I can tell.


I'd say you both are trolling eachother.

To outright say the Religion represents the act of "absorbing money/molesting kids/and creating lies" is just as silly as saying science is bullshit.

There are major groups of bad apples in both groups saying they represent such group.

Last edited by Vecha; 2012-06-25 at 02:08 PM.
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