Just a heads up. Discussions over on AA have been popping up recently.

[Coreldan]

Also, community owned server-based games usually have way better admin/GM presence than MMO games like these, simply cos each small server is often owned by one or a few people and they moderate it for free. Meanwhile GMs for MMO games are expensive and even fairly ineffective.

[Bonius]

Originally Posted by NewSith

We may be worrying too much idd, but what you're saying is irrelevant also. Saying that the "GAME ANTIHACKING SYSTEM WILL BE IMPENETRABLE, ONLY FEW OCCASIONS WILL OCCUR" is closing eyes on a problem.

Right now we're caring, not whining and posting "goodbye" messages on these boards. However if the problem is not looked into properly, then the amount of crying and rageabandoning will reach a critical mass. With the result being a dead most promising game in the genre.


EDIT: if you're angry with comparisons to BF3, replace any BF3 mention with APB, for example.

All I've seen so far in each and every one of these threads is people stating the obvious time and time again, with nothing new added to the discussion other than the obvious "but we don't know for certain".

Game developers aren't idiots and SOE is a company chasing profits, not losses. So far we don't even have a game to play, thus the problem in itself is non-existant.

Originally Posted by Skitrel

Sigh. This is incorrect I'm afraid, and impossible. Making an entirely server side game is utterly retarded and is calling out for horrible lag where you're shooting at a target, hitting it perfectly and not doing any damage at all because to the server the target isn't where you're aiming, this means you have to aim ahead of them, missing, in order to actually hit them on the server's computer. Much older games used to do this and things moved to a hybrid of client and server a long time ago so that if players are hitting something on their screen they're actually hitting the enemy. If this isn't the case the game will be shit, simple as.

SOE have stated, repeatedly, that the game is a mix of client and server side checks. This is STANDARD. There is nothing new or different here. This is how it's been done for years now.

MW3 has multiple layers of protection; VAC, client side check, host machine checks(in place of server checks), stat checks and auto stat bans and a dedicated team that does things unknown with tools unknown.

BF3 has multiple layers of protection; punkbuster, client side check, server side checks(that have proven to be ineffective compared with other games), and periodic auto stat bans, as well as community stat mods.

PS2, as far as we're aware has; punkbuster, client side check, server side checks, HOPEFULLY their own in client anti cheat system and a GM team that will work in game and out of game - probably much like MW3s teams.

Get your facts straight before suggesting that SOE are doing something magical and drastically different with their mechanics that's going to make everything hunky dorey perfect land, they're not.



The bell curve is everything when it comes to player enjoyment. When you shift the bell curve right you make players who are otherwise average players feel like they're unskilled and you make the unskilled ludicrously bad. If people do not feel accomplished in a game they will not play it, simple, you have to enjoy a game to want to play it. Hackers that look legitimate are MUCH worse than obvious hackers that are easily instantly bannable. They're just a little bit annoying for a very brief period whereas hackers that appear legitimate do damage as a whole to the game by pushing the curve right and making people that shouldn't be bad, bad. This causes people's enjoyment to diminish as a result of the disproportionate skill distribution in the community. The bell curve is important.

What I meant with layers of protection are the different ways (software) they use to do said checks. From what I've heard most checks are run through the same software.

You can post that bell curve all you want, but you're still completely missing my point. The curve in itself cannot shift to one end or another. The top 5% is always 5% of the population, this does not shift. The means of getting there might differ, but the actual percentage does not change.

[Skitrel]

Originally Posted by Bonius

You can post that bell curve all you want, but you're still completely missing my point. The curve in itself cannot shift to one end or another. The top 5% is always 5% of the population, this does not shift. The means of getting there might differ, but the actual percentage does not change.

It does shift. You miss the point, this isn't a top 5% or lower 5% type graph, it's not supposed to be a normalisation, it just is by the fact that that's how skill distribution works in every game. When you throw hackers into the mix you break the normalisation. It's not a shifting of the bell curve it's a complete breaking of the bell curve, note how I didn't draw it as a bell curve when I added the hacking to it.

When you break the bell curve you lose the lower to average player base due to the disproportionate skill and breaking the enjoyment of the game by reducing the number of lesser skilled opponents people have. When this happens you lose a significant portion of the player base, as illustrated poorly by the scribble, the more you shift it, the more you lose.

[Gandhi]

Scripting in TF2 or Tribes: Ascend is a good example of pushing the curve to the right "legally". In T:A I use a key binding that decreases mouse sensitivity when I zoom in then resets it when I zoom out. This makes it much easier to play Sentinel, and while anyone could use this bind not everyone knows about it. The end effect is that players with the bind have an advantage over those without it. TF2 is full of scripts like this and the end effect is that you push everyone to use the scripts just to keep up.

But that's all legal, fighting actual hacks that are as subtle as that mouse sensitivity trick isn't easy. I can't say I envy the team in charge of that project.

[Pollo Jack]

We could also do replays. Not a kill cam obviously but after you log out you could view the replay. Aim bot hackers would be that much more obvious with the snap to especially since there will often be more than one person to aim at. I have at least seen a snap to back and forth happen, fairly obvious it wasn't intentional aim.

I also still don't think phone numbers are something to rule out. Asking for a phone number is far from draconian as everyone has one, activating the account via text or voice is straightforward, you hit 1 in reply. Obviously some will have a work around as sim cards are easier to get in some countries than others but it will at least deter some.

[Skitrel]

Originally Posted by Pollo Jack

We could also do replays. Not a kill cam obviously but after you log out you could view the replay. Aim bot hackers would be that much more obvious with the snap to especially since there will often be more than one person to aim at. I have at least seen a snap to back and forth happen, fairly obvious it wasn't intentional aim.

I also still don't think phone numbers are something to rule out. Asking for a phone number is far from draconian as everyone has one, activating the account via text or voice is straightforward, you hit 1 in reply. Obviously some will have a work around as sim cards are easier to get in some countries than others but it will at least deter some.

If you see a snap they're doing a terrible job of appearing legitimate.

This is what someone's play looks like when they're attempting to appear legitimate. Notice the tiny little square around his crosshair? That's the area of effect the aimbot has, you won't recognise any snapping at all. Viewed without being on his screen the ability to spot the difference is small, we all have those few ludicrously perfect times. The problem is that it's implausible but not impossible, therefore enforcing bans on play like this unless statistics show clear discrepancies with top level play will catch legitimate players too, so it's not possible to just kneejerk ban things that look like this.

[Coreldan]

Originally Posted by Skitrel

If you see a snap they're doing a terrible job of appearing legitimate.

This is what someone's play looks like when they're attempting to appear legitimate. Notice the tiny little square around his crosshair? That's the area of effect the aimbot has, you won't recognise any snapping at all. Viewed without being on his screen the ability to spot the difference is small, we all have those few ludicrously perfect times. The problem is that it's implausible but not impossible, therefore enforcing bans on play like this unless statistics show clear discrepancies with top level play will catch legitimate players too, so it's not possible to just kneejerk ban things that look like this.

CSS legit Aimbot the 2nd - killerra - YouTube

Yeah.. this is pretty much the thing. GMs can only catch those who are terrible at hiding it or don't hide it at all. Chances are that the anti cheat program can catch these fairly easy too. Anyone who is smart enough to tone down the cheat can't be 100% caught by GMs. Or can, but they take the risk of banning just a really good legit player.

that said, in that video, had I been a GM observing the player for a while, the wallhack probably would've been super easy to tell, but even this has some things to it, such as VOIP (a friend elsewhere saw him run there and relays the info) or for example high quality headphones that can easily tell footsteps for example.

But yes, only a stupid cheater who doesnt try to hide it snaps, and these arnt generally speaking a problem even for the automated ban software.

[dm Akolyte]

I ran into a terrorist hacker in PS1. Like seriously, he was using hacking the game as a terrorist measure. He was mad at SOE for some reason, and decided that being an obnoxious hacker would be the best way to damage the company, by getting people to unsubscribe.

Less of a terrorist and more of a "rage-ist," I guess.

[Hmr85]

Personally I wouldn't be against SOE going after Hackers from a legal standpoint if such a thing was possible. Making a example out of 2 or 3 kiddie scripters would be enough to put the fear into even some of the most seasoned hackers. Which is something they could do if they put it in their TOS that all players have to agree to prior setting up the game.

[moosepoop]

Originally Posted by Vancha

I don't understand the mentality of the havoc-wreaking cheaters.

they are sociopaths/psychopaths. people who are either conditioned or biologically incapable of feeling empathy.


sony has to hire vigilant gms who take their jobs seriously, who monitor by server alerts when a player has a massive kill streak, unsually high k/d or acuracy. punkbuster should be the icing on the cake, not the end all be all.

if a cheater takes over the server, there is nowhere to run. the game is literally shut down.

[Shanesan]

Originally Posted by Skitrel

CSS legit Aimbot the 2nd - killerra - YouTube

That guy is also rather poor at hiding it. He's keeping his mouse level on the vertical position where the user is, even when the user has changed their vertical position. See 1:22, where he's sniping against two different vertical positions. And he moves the moment the hacks tell him its clear to move.

Just screams hacks, or really bad, obvious enemies.

Edit: He also puts himself in obvious danger (or it WOULD be obvious if he didn't have the hacks telling him it wasn't) to go for the kills where he knows there are people.

[moosepoop]

aimbotters arent the problem. they can be put on kill on sight list by players.



this is what im worried about.

[Shanesan]

Originally Posted by moosepoop

aimbotters arent the problem. they can be put on kill on sight list by players.

Nasty Planetside Hack Version 2 - YouTube


this is what im worried about.

Is
1) That tank floating
2) Someone teleporting the whole continent to one spot
3) That tank blowing up EVERYONE because they're all concentrated?

[Hark]

What kind of sorcery is that ?

Anyway, such hackers must be rare.

[TESnake]

But don't worry guys, PunkBuster will save the day!