Sniper round scaling effectiveness. - Page 2

Senyu · 2011-08-07, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by exLupo

Is that immobile and then you can strafe to adjust your shot or stay immobile for the duration? A lot of game snipers use a/d strafing to tweak their shots instead of moving the mouse.

Must remain stationary. Wont be able to move and use this ability

CutterJohn · 2011-08-07, 09:52 AM

I have no issues with sniper rifles being used at close range effectively. Maybe a stiff cof penalty to reflect that its a giant gun you're trying to whip around, but other than that, whatever. I'll get shot in the face occasionally. I'm fine with that. If he misses, he's dead. Thats how it always works with sniper rifles in games like this.

Edit: And they miss a LOT. The one thing that could require this to be changed so that headshots are arbitrarily low damage at close range is if aimhacking becomes prevalent.

Originally Posted by Vancha

One-shot headshots are in the game, and subject to change if they make snipers monstrous in beta.

Or the mechanics of sniping to make headshots more difficult.

I just wanted to quote this, because wow.

Very, very wow.

kamikava · 2011-08-07, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

I have no issues with sniper rifles being used at close range effectively. Maybe a stiff cof penalty to reflect that its a giant gun you're trying to whip around, but other than that, whatever. I'll get shot in the face occasionally. I'm fine with that. If he misses, he's dead. Thats how it always works with sniper rifles in games like this.

Couldn't have said it better myself. So i won't.

EASyEightyEight · 2011-08-07, 09:59 AM

I think simply adding bullet drop in the same way MA will get bullet drop this time around would help differentiate skilled snipers from noob snipers, though this might be too detrimental to both it's effective range AND simply hitting anything at a good distance.

Regardless, I don't like the idea of being one-shotted by a sniper rifle. The idea the moment I crouch down to open fire with my assault rifle only to get dropped in an instant doesn't sound like much fun. Worse, it only encourages everyone to pick up sniping - especially if MA suffers the same drawbacks in PS2 as it does in PS1 (aggravatingly short ranged effectiveness for a rifle.)

CutterJohn · 2011-08-07, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by EASyEightyEight

Worse, it only encourages everyone to pick up sniping - especially if MA suffers the same drawbacks in PS2 as it does in PS1 (aggravatingly short ranged effectiveness for a rifle.)

Snipers aren't very great in a combined arms game, since vehicles aren't very prone to headshots. Plus, everyone being sniper means cloakers get to have tons of fun.

Instakill headshots + Instakill backstabs = hilarity as all the lone wolf snipers get constantly harassed by the l33t ninja cloakers.

I agree with the MA thing though. It should hit out to the effective range of snipers, and not tickle when it does so.

EASyEightyEight · 2011-08-07, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Snipers aren't very great in a combined arms game, since vehicles aren't very prone to headshots. Plus, everyone being sniper means cloakers get to have tons of fun.

Instakill headshots + Instakill backstabs = hilarity as all the lone wolf snipers get constantly harassed by the l33t ninja cloakers.

I agree with the MA thing though. It should hit out to the effective range of snipers, and not tickle when it does so.

I honestly don't know why I didn't put 2 and 2 together

But I'm still a selfish prick, and still think snipers shouldn't be able to 1 shot light armor and up. I believe the very fact that it's not a 1 shot insta-gib weapon is the reason why Planetside isn't currently chock full of snipers. If it were, we'd never see MA. Anything beyond 75m is a waste of ammo, anything below and you consider grabbing your HA.

But eh... I'm sure SOE can come up with some method to make 1HKO headshots take some effort or timing, not just waiting for a victim to crouch down and open fire. Maybe a wind system (specific to the rifle) that can effect the trajectory of the round? Might be interesting waiting for the moment there's no wind to fire or even compensating for it, but could also be disabling for any reliable sniping.

When those ninja assassins do show up, it should take only one shot to kill them in return. It's just a matter of seeing them coming... ehm... sort of.

Huma · 2011-08-07, 11:54 AM

Hrm I can see your points. Maybe Sony could come up with something to counter it though. I'm really not looking for something that will create he'll for grunts. I would just like to see snipers rewarded for actually using their weapon as intended. As for them not be able to hip fire very well that's a myth. At least in Planetside 1. I've seen them consistently get kills that way. Oh the joy...

Erendil · 2011-08-07, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by EASyEightyEight

I honestly don't know why I didn't put 2 and 2 together

But I'm still a selfish prick, and still think snipers shouldn't be able to 1 shot light armor and up. I believe the very fact that it's not a 1 shot insta-gib weapon is the reason why Planetside isn't currently chock full of snipers. If it were, we'd never see MA. Anything beyond 75m is a waste of ammo, anything below and you consider grabbing your HA.

I agree with this. I don't think sniper rifles should be able to 1S1K Rexo or Agile-equivalent infantry at any range, in part because of the detrimental affect I fear it might have to outdoor firefights, but more because the huge size of PS1/2 maps make it impossible for even an observant grunt to be able to keep an eye on every single possible sniper location that is available.

1S1K snipers work okay in smaller-scale fps games where there are a limited number of sniper's nests available and where the relatively small size of the map allows you to keep an eye on a good portion of the terrain and react accordingly. Plus you can always put your back against one of the outside edges of the map so that a sniper can't get you from behind.

Not so in PS1/2. The maps are huge, and Higby has stated that PS2 maps will be designed with more vertical gameplay in mind than PS1 (the example he gave was walkways situated along canyon walls), so you'll not only have to deal with snipers shooting from any direction or distance, but from multiple levels as well. I fear that there will be so many potential sniper nests available that 1S1K snipers will be too effective at their job and will end up shutting down outdoor infantry activity of any kind.

PS1 does sniping quite well. The 2-shot sniper kill means that snipers are able to kill grunts that are either already injured or caught out in the open. But a full-health grunt can still maneuver outdoors so long as they keep themselves fully healed and move so that they always have cover to duck behind. That IMO is balanced. And fun because of the game of cat-and-mouse that can ensue as infantry try to maneuver outdoors.

I see 1S1K snipers as being fun for the sniper, but not fun at all for everyone else. More of a skeet shoot than a contest of skills.

Talek Krell · 2011-08-07, 06:21 PM

If we simply must have OSOK sniper rifles, then I suppose this would be a decent way to do it. Would prevent them from becoming an issue indoors.

Personally hoping that they decide OSOK was a bad idea during beta. I think PS had the sniping system just right. You couldn't just kill someone, you had to actually fight them. The interaction made it as interesting for the target as for the sniper. Even encouraged snipers to cooperate. A two person team could kill very effectively if they worked together.

Sirisian · 2011-08-07, 08:49 PM

I've said this idea in the headshot threads before. Anyway I'd prefer that the bullet gains damage to to 100% of it's normal damage at 100 yards. I don't feel like looking up the posts, but I mentioned explaining it away with a NTU rounds that captured NTU as it traveled so it would only do it's full damage when the bullet was fully charged. Nice and simple explanation.

However, there's one change that needs to be made. If a user lacks armor then it one hits at any range. This allows the sniper rifle to kill cloakers one shot which was invaluable when they snuck up behind you.

In any case hitting a person standing still with a sniper is skilless as mentioned before in the headshots thread. The skill of using a sniper rifle is the second shot. Whether's it's from 100 yards or 2 km it doesn't matter. I can't tell you how many times I've shot a random person just to have him hide so I can't get the second shot. That's how it should be. I digress though since this is beating a dead horse.

Senyu · 2011-08-07, 09:02 PM

I get headshotted while crouching by a sniper. Big deal. I'm sure our snipers will be able to help take care of them like they did in PS1. Lot of sniper vs. sniper.

TerminatorUK · 2011-08-08, 01:41 AM

I think it's too early to make an informed decision. We do not know whether aiming will depend on breathe control, classic CoF bloom control or another mechanism. OSOK should be headshot-only for all armoured foes.

exLupo · 2011-08-10, 03:10 AM

Regardless of implementation, I'm pretty sure that this is a good example of what most (all?) of us wants to make sure isn't a remotely viable tactic in PS2.
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Personally, I've got no problems with snipers being scary outdoors. Ultimately, it'll turn out like most games where you get a relative 1:1 of snipers (and cloakers) shutting each other down. If one team chooses to not field a response then their losses are going to be their fault. Also, as stated above, vehicle friendly areas won't mean much for snipers at all.

What I want to see happen is that sniper rifles fill the "long range infantry suppression" role. As always, decide the gameplay niche and then fill it with a mechanic. Once the role is filled, carve off the unnecessary parts. In this case, mobile CQC sniping. I'm not saying you camping a long hallway should be out of bounds but hopscotch headshots don't fit that same gameplay model. CoF settle, breathing, scoped charge-up, whatever. Keep the niche, toss the excess.

Kechiro · 2011-08-10, 02:17 PM

Sniping is pretty much what I do in PS1. 99% of my kills come from sniping, either at close range (indoors on stairways) or outside (pretty much 98% come from here). To be honest, I'm completely against OSOK from ANY gun that isn't used at POINT BLANK IN YOUR FACE range. Mainly because the only info we have to go on is PS1 mechanics/weapons.

If you play NC or VS, you know for a fact that EVERY TR has MCG. Why? Because any noob that can shake his mouse and hold a button down can get a kill. Spray and Pray is the name of the TR game (most of the time, props to those that are actually skilled with an MCG; you know who you are). Could you imagine having an MCG on every TR infantry when all they have to do is aim above your waist, spray away and just let a single round hit you in the face? OP'd much?

But this is about sniping. I enjoy how PS1 did sniping. It shouldn't change whatsoever. If you ask me, speccing into the sniper tree should allow you more ammo for your gun, better scopes (with variable zooms and possibly infra-red if the weather actually does anything this time around), faster reload speeds and more damage. However, they should NEVER do 100% OSOK damage. At max, a sniper should do 85% damage to a rexo, 90% to an agile. That's with a headshot; and even better, 85% to an angile, 80% to a rexo with damage boost from the gun/skill tree. I can't tell you how many times I've misjudged a health bar and the target just barely slipped away with a sliver of health.

As much as I'd like there to be OSOK in-game, I just sincerely don't agree with it what so ever. I personally love taking my Sniper to stairwells in PS1 because it's effective and requires a hell of a lot more skill than MCG/Maelstrom spamming, so I don't want to hear any bitching about that. With all the friendlies in these areas it's harder than people think to get a decent shot off and not kill a teammate. I'm not saying PS2 will have this same sort of scenario, but I would like to have this option and it be viable without people bitching and saying it's OP'd.

Just my two cents. Good snipers should be rewarded, yes. Because I've made some really insane shots lately and all the credit I got was my one kill and a smile to myself. However, OSOK is not the way to go. For any gun, imo.

Atuday · 2011-08-10, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Kechiro

Sniping is pretty much what I do in PS1. 99% of my kills come from sniping, either at close range (indoors on stairways) or outside (pretty much 98% come from here). To be honest, I'm completely against OSOK from ANY gun that isn't used at POINT BLANK IN YOUR FACE range. Mainly because the only info we have to go on is PS1 mechanics/weapons.

If you play NC or VS, you know for a fact that EVERY TR has MCG. Why? Because any noob that can shake his mouse and hold a button down can get a kill. Spray and Pray is the name of the TR game (most of the time, props to those that are actually skilled with an MCG; you know who you are). Could you imagine having an MCG on every TR infantry when all they have to do is aim above your waist, spray away and just let a single round hit you in the face? OP'd much?

But this is about sniping. I enjoy how PS1 did sniping. It shouldn't change whatsoever. If you ask me, speccing into the sniper tree should allow you more ammo for your gun, better scopes (with variable zooms and possibly infra-red if the weather actually does anything this time around), faster reload speeds and more damage. However, they should NEVER do 100% OSOK damage. At max, a sniper should do 85% damage to a rexo, 90% to an agile. That's with a headshot; and even better, 85% to an angile, 80% to a rexo with damage boost from the gun/skill tree. I can't tell you how many times I've misjudged a health bar and the target just barely slipped away with a sliver of health.

As much as I'd like there to be OSOK in-game, I just sincerely don't agree with it what so ever. I personally love taking my Sniper to stairwells in PS1 because it's effective and requires a hell of a lot more skill than MCG/Maelstrom spamming, so I don't want to hear any bitching about that. With all the friendlies in these areas it's harder than people think to get a decent shot off and not kill a teammate. I'm not saying PS2 will have this same sort of scenario, but I would like to have this option and it be viable without people bitching and saying it's OP'd.

Just my two cents. Good snipers should be rewarded, yes. Because I've made some really insane shots lately and all the credit I got was my one kill and a smile to myself. However, OSOK is not the way to go. For any gun, imo.

One thing I would like to point out is in one of the interview videos they said there would be head shots and different weapons would get different bonuses for head shots. I seem to remember it being said that the MCG would get no bonus for a head shot while a sniper rifle might get a 200% bonus to its shot. This makes OSOK sniper only on a head shot and MCGs and assualt weapons would be stuck with much less a bonus for head shots.