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2013-09-01, 04:00 PM
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[Ignore Me] #1 | ||
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Private
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Welcome, this will be a thread for discussing the further niching of the NC as a faction and making the NC frontline the relevant and reckoning force it should be (while not being OP. Nobody likes being OP, nobody likes getting nerfed after being OP, I am also not nobody) the intent here is balance. NC Empire Specific design is in general far too situational, and not really strong enough in its designed niche to justify using for very long, this needs to be fixed. This will NOT be a thread for debating whether the NC needs a revamp or not. This will NOT be a thread for discussing the areas where NC is well thought out and functional. This thread will be for the open discussion of addressing long standing issues with the NC backline and ES design as it pertains to both being effective and being fun to use. I'm going to be talking a lot about "crowd control" because lets face it, fighting in crowds is the major selling point of this game, and the NC are the worst at it on all fronts, which makes them the worst at the intended game... Now read my brethren (and ladies), for this will not be over quickly, and you will not enjoy this.
The Vanguard: a great 1v1 tank in low pop situations, but has the least crowd control capability of any of the in game tanks and can't farm. Even the Lightning has better crowd control because it has faster firing rate and more DPS and is fast enough to escape if things turn bad, it doesn't "need" a shield like the Vanguard does because a Vanguard can't escape from a bad situation, it has to stay and fight or die. The ML85 Enforcer is a good AV weapon that patches the holes in the damage of the main gun in AV, but it's terrible at killing infantry following the nerf. The Vulcan doesn't share this problem. You'll be a smart Vanguard driver if you equip the NS Halberd instead, because it increases your effectiveness in both AV and AI. Why should NC be the only faction that can't kill infantry well? Here are some charts of player performance for all MBT cannons. I want to play a game... find the NC. HE: https://docs.google.com/a/klyptotec....obE9SVkE#gid=0 HEAT: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2SUJybmc#gid=0 AP: https://docs.google.com/a/klyptotec....2MGhjWlE#gid=0 Suggestions: -Make the Enforcer 1 shot infantry again, it's the only way to make the Vanguard scary to the enemy without OPing it in AV by changing the main gun and it would still require teamwork and skill. Currently, the Vulcan has the same or better TTK than the Enforcer on infantry out to a decent range while the Enforcer is more situational than the Vulcan because it's as hard to use well as the Halberd, but not really effective enough in either role to really justify taking.over the Halberd. Once you have time and certs invested into your Vanguard and a reliable gunner, the Halberd will outperform the Enforcer in every role. -Alternately instead of changing the Enforcer, the main gun blast radius inner/outer could be increased for HEAT/HE rounds, as Vanguard HEAT/HE rounds obviously underperform and could use some help in that department. Although this still doesn't change the fact that the Enforcer is A. not very NC by design and B. increasingly less competitive as you become more proficient with tanking in general. -The C85 is completely useless, but neither myself nor anyone else has ever had an idea as to how to improve it to a place where it is useful. It is bad design and unless it gets a lockon mechanic or turns into a hitscan laser railgun type thing, it will always be useless and outclassed by the NS AI weapons. Aside from this the Vanguard is fine, it's got a powerful but balanced main gun and it is well designed and functional in its intended niche. More NC things should play out like the Vanguard does, although I do think that the Vanguard shield should have a cert upgradable HP like the Aegis shield has. For instance, the final level is exactly as it is on live right now, but the first level only gives half the HP of the live shield and it cascades from there. The shield is unbugged now, so something like this can make sense now, and I don't think you will piss off many NC, but it will quiet many TR/VS. The Reaver: used to be a good 1v1 ESF for the pilot skilled enough to minimize all of its built in downsides in order to capitalize on its short list of advantages. Even during that period it was still a less capable craft because the other fighters could do more to help the fight instead of just ganking some lone undefended flier, but following the Rotary rebalance, it just has far too many downsides and really no mechanical advantage. It's a glass cannon without the cannon part. The Reaver is the slowest, largest, loudest ESF which is really only viable at taking out Libs and Galaxies because ESF combat now is too risky and you don't have the mechanical advantage at close range anymore, which was what the entire Reaver design was hinged on for months, it NEEDED that edge because it was its only edge to speak of that wasn't outclassed by the other two craft. It used to have superior health pool = lost. It used to have faster AB top speed and momentum to engage/disengage from a losing battle = lost. It used to have a superior Rotary which offered it a higher EFFECTIVE health than the other two ESFs at the very least to overshadow its deep downfalls = lost. What does it have now? Use the phrase "vertical thrust" and I'll punch you, because you don't understand how air fights actually play out. Here is a link showing the current ESF balance and how it relates to performance in real game type situations: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3UEppSGc#gid=0 Here are some pictures showing the Reavers major drawback that is its leading cause of poor performance in large crowd fights and is currently unbalanced:   Suggestions: -Give the Reaver (and Scythe) more reserve ammo for their Rotary. There is no reason why TR should be the only ESF with ample reserve ammo, even my Vortek with some pretty expensive reserve certs has to find a reload pad after every dogfight engagement because you never know what you will be up against next, and ~200 shots in reserve after a dogfight just doesn't cut it. This means many NC air units are constantly leaving the fight and weakening their front line staying power. -Possibly increase the Reavers' armor again like it used to be in Beta. The Vanguard has more armor than the Magrider/Prowler and nobody complains about it, so it really seems like the Reaver wants this as well. Doesn't have to be a whole lot, just enough that it will patch some design holes in the Reaver that are currently unbalanced (Hitbox size, slow speed, low agility). Now that the Rotary guns have been "normalized" it's time that the ESFs themselves receive the same tuning, the Reaver is really the only one that needs some touching up IMO, and I think this would be a great way to do it. NC Max: a great 1v1 Max with (you guessed it, the least crowd control). An NC Max must be fully certed before it's even viable in its niche by design, however when it is viable its action is like a lightswitch and it actually gains its close range superiority finally, that only cost what, 5000 certs with no real driving motive? So the NC Max gains the ability to put down a single enemy Max very quickly if he can close the gap to just outside melee range without dying, very fun to do. What kind of situation do you see a single undefended enemy Max alone in a room with nothing else around him? Uh huh, thought so. Tiny magazines, long reloads, and the burden of closing the gap while taking fire is all working against the NC Max. Forget about "superiority" here for a minute, the amount of situations where the NC Max is able to contribute to the cause of taking territory for your team is much lower than the others because of its severely limited crowd control capability. Max AV = Comets > Fractures >>> Falcons = Ravens. Suggestions: -Make NC Max AV weapons more competitive. The Ravens aren't great, but I feel like they are more or less functional for such an easy to use weapon, they're fine. The Falcons need help. The Falcons on Test Server have buffed projectile velocity, and this is a great step in the right direction for the NC Max, however, it's not all that is needed. The Falcons should keep their convergence issues rather than become "point and win" because being harder to use is sort of an NC thing and I like that. The Falcons should hit harder though, and they're inferior to the other Max AV weapons which are also easier to use. This is not balanced. Falcons have a longer TTK vs. an enemy Max than either the Fracture or the Comets, and the Falcons viability greatly drops off with range while the aforementioned two do not. To balance this situation, the Falcon should be buffed so that it 1 shots infantry with a direct hit but that the Flak armor changes posted to the Test server will negate the OHK on infantry. This should bring the Falcons more in line with the other Max AV weapons and this is much more possible now than it was before due to the Flak changes that are incoming. Now if you complain about being OHK, you were wearing the wrong suit so it's your problem. That's it, more result for the effort put in and the NC Max will be more balanced. -NC AI Max is fine, do not discuss. -The NC Burster performance still stinks and the others are more powerful for really no justifiable reason, but I don't have any suggestions to improve this aside from buff the Reaver. Leave the other factions to use their EZ mode AA Bursters while NC will attain air superiority through skill. NC is the "hardest faction to use well" give us the results to go along with the effort put in. That's all I have to say about that. Reread the Reaver section if you have any further questions. Phoenix: This is not a great rocket, it has nothing "great" about it that is not overshadowed by something else in game. Its camera guided projectile is currently just a gimmick for people who are not capable of learning projectile flight patterns. The Phoenix rocket is so slow that a stock Sunderer will outrun it, and its 300m effective range only compounds with that to make the practical uses of the Phoenix very limited indeed. It seems the actual situations where you would need or desire a camera guided rocket are shut out by default. It has the lowest damage output of any rocket type in the game because the rocket does not even begin its reload sequence until the rocket hits, runs out of range, or is aborted mid flight. Phoenix rocket doesn't even destroy an infantry terminal in one rocket, every other rocket in the game does. Where is my incentive to use this rocket? Hard to use, situational, weak, outclassed by the Lancer/Striker/Deci/Anni. It should not OHK infantry again, though for having to sacrifice that aspect when choosing a rocket, it should perform well enough in AV that it is worth the sacrifice. Currently, it is not. Suggestions: -EITHER - make the Phoenix rocket have a faster projectile like the new Falcons just got but keep the 300m limitation, the speed will make the rocket more effective within its pathetic range - OR - add an alternate fire mechanic for the Phoenix that acts more like the Max mounted Ravens, keeping the low maneuverability and slow speed of the camera guided rocket, but abolishing the range limitation IN THIS MODE, so that it functions like a shoulder mounted AV Mana turret. Before you call OP, the Phoenix is still weaker than the AV Mana turret per shot landed, has less DPS because the AV Mana reloads (cools down) immediately after firing while the Phoenix doesn't begin to reload until after the projectile hits a target. Further, the other ESRLs are more or less at this level of effectiveness, so having NC attain this level would just bring things into a logical balance. Harasser: The ML85 Enforcer is a decent AV weapon, the C85 is s***. The NC Har doesn't match up to the Vulcan/Marauder Har of the TR. The Saron Har may share the same issues as the NC Har, but at least the VS get the PPA Har, which gives them a role that NC doesn't get. You will find NC Harassers equipping Halberd or Fury mostly because our ES guns are too situational. Suggestions: -Read the above suggestion for improving the Vanguard. Make the Enforcer less situational. -Fix the C85 Modified to give the NC Har a new role. Infantry: NC Infantry combat is fine, do not discuss. NC have the best selection of sidearms and a great selection of primaries that are both functional in their niche and balanced. I wish more of the NC were well thought out in this same manner. I'd prefer if the Reaper DMR/AC-X11 didn't have such slow projectiles to balance their difficulty of handling, but it's such a small issue that it's an afterthought compared to the large issues with NC equipment previously mentioned. These suggestions are just to get this conversation started and offer some ideas for improvement while not making NC OP. Please discuss and contribute in a positive way, trolling or discussion of closed topics will be ignored. Thank you, -DashRendar Last edited by DashRendar; 2013-09-01 at 04:26 PM. |
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2013-09-02, 04:16 AM
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[Ignore Me] #2 | ||
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Corporal
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excellent post...
not sure if it is perfect as I haven't played enough NC- mostly a TR guy- but it seems to paints a solid picture of NC capabilities and shortcomings. The only problem with this piece is the title.. it should read: "What you should consider when choosing a faction! -NC part" and now to explain: what you want is NC to be competitive in ALL fronts- NEVER going to happen. This isn't "BS3"..."DLC me until I choke" (you know... two sides, equal in just about everything) When players choose a side they take a faction that fights a certain way with certain weapons, not just a color or the textile of the uniform. Every faction HAS (and should continue to have) things they do worse or better (I personally find that all these OP threads are total waste of time), Your in-depth analysis of the NC side SHOULD BE WHAT NEW PLAYERS READ BEFORE THEY PICK A FACTION.... and make them think, "does this compliment how I feel I would like to play?" (less air, more tank and plenty of infantry CQC) I would love if someone would write a similar piece about VS and TR and that this would be posted as standart reading for any new players not sure which side to pick (and what to cert first?) If you want to point out problems- then point towards the issue that not enough is done to explain to new players what playing as NC or VS means. (or TR if you want to explain to new players the idea of "generic") Last edited by blampoet; 2013-09-02 at 04:17 AM. |
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2013-09-02, 06:06 AM
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[Ignore Me] #3 | ||
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Sergeant Major
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While you make aso valid points you are unfortunatly falling into the trap of exagerating NC weaknesess way too much.
The Enforcer takes 2 shots to kill infantry. Giving it back the 1 hit kill would make it OP. The problem is with the Vulcan not the enforcer. Your assesment of the Phoenix is also almost entirely wrong. -No other rocket launcher lets you fire at a target hidden behind cover while still being safe behind cover yourself. - (im so tired of educating people on this) The damage listed in the ingame stats is the damage it does against infantry. It does bonus damage against vehicles whickh ammounts to the same damage output as the Decimator (compare the ammount of hits needed to kill a tank in the VR) Overall it is a powerfull Mid to close range AV weapon with a mechanic that can be used by a SMART user to great effect. It has a diferent nieche than the other empire specific launchers which are designed for longer ranges but fall short up close. Also a slight not on the Reaver. Its crousing speed is low yes but it has the best afterburner. Last edited by MrMak; 2013-09-02 at 06:09 AM. |
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2013-09-02, 08:22 AM
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[Ignore Me] #4 | ||
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First Sergeant
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if your complaining about the enforcer not 1 shotting infantry then take a look at the sauron it cant 1 shot infantry either and tbh i wouldnt want it to it would make it op and would get hit with the nerf bat again. yes the TR Vulcan is op v's infantry but thats how its designed its not that good against armour which is where the sauron and enforcer have the advantage.
There are ment to be differences between the empires otherwise why choose the empire your with. Ive been vs for 9 years regardless of what is sucky and whats effective - magrider anyone !!! thaat got nerfed hard for its manouverability but thats its design its ment to be manouverable but there were tonns of whiners on forums ( here and soe) so it got nerfed hard and now is as mobile as a rock (compared to its pre nerf self). comparing empire specific kit is a bad idea all you can do is look at whats needed on your empire and push for it rather then "the tr have xyz and we dont , we suck" kind of mentality. look at the striker its insane but it will get balanced eventually and for now the tr are making hay while the sun is shining with it. the reaver is not a bad esf at all its probably the most manouverable of the 3 so please dont start complaining and the vertical thrust issue will effect all 3 the same so thats no excuse either. |
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2013-09-02, 09:52 AM
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[Ignore Me] #5 | |||
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Major
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Turn C85 into a cluster grenade launcher!
I don't want more OHKs. The ML85 needs something else over the NS AV. I suggest a few things, not combined: Insane projectile velocity (Saron much? ... hmm) Increased damage over repeated anti-armor hits Projectile blinds or disrupts enemy vision on hit for an "instant" (.33s) Pushes enemy vehicle (disrupts enemy accuracy) -- Things along the line of utility. The Phoenix, however, I don't think is UP. It has the same damage per shot as the Decimator v. Vehicles, but its DPS will never match the deci due to how the reload timer works. The ultimate strength of the Phoenix is being able to strike without warning in the most unthinkable of places. Adding any more maneuverability to the Phoenix missile will make it trash enemy MAX units so they are not able to use them outdoors (it did this in PS1 -- if there were Phoenix groups in the area, pulling a MAX in the field guaranteed a swift death).
Last edited by AThreatToYou; 2013-09-02 at 09:53 AM. |
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2013-09-02, 10:30 AM
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[Ignore Me] #6 | ||||
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Private
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If asymmetrical balance were met, we'd have things like TR having better AA, and VS/NC having better air units. That way all factions could achieve air superiority in a different way. However, what we have now is that TR have better AA AND the easiest to win ESF. One faction being a shoe in to win an equally manned/skilled niche is not "asymmetrical balance." Further what could also happen is that TR have the best AI farming tank and the worst AV tank, while NC have the worst farming tank while having the best AV tank. That doesn't happen either... What we see in the stats numbers is that the Prowler is the best AI farming tank and the NC the worst, and the NC tank being either balanced or just a hair underbalanced in AV. Take a look at the top 30 entries for AP shell performance. 6 - NC, 10 TR, 14 - VS. Balance working as intended? My top complaint is that NC can't field a diverse warfront. TR/VS get "better" AI than NS, while NC get "worse" AI than NS. OK, taking that just as it is it doesn't sound so bad, but lets continue. TR/VS don't always get "worse" AV than NS, they have balanced AV or in some cases their AV is better than the NS equivalent too. I'm not just talking about Tank/Harasser secondaries mind you, although those are a shining example of this really. Take the Fury/Marauder for example. The Fury was available to everyone and the Marauder available only to TR as a sidegrade weapon that carried a TR trait and had realistically the same performance as the NS Fury. Now the Fury got nerfed because "it was too powerful" and the Marauder was untouched, now making the TR MBT/Har AI weapon "better" than what everyone else gets. It's a straight upgrade and nothing is being done about it. This subtle leveraging funnels NC into narrow roles where they can do one thing decently well (sometimes not any better than your enemy can perform that role) while sacrificing any other role that would translate to an efficient and well balanced warfront. To me this is a massive failure in faction design, and a cause to redesign or rebalance the entire faction empire specific makeup. Why one faction should be great in one area and balanced in the other while another faction is balanced in one area and underbalanced in the other is beyond me. Good luck sorting that one out  As you said it may not be a "large" change, but I do passionately think that a change must be made because currently the NC is pretty poorly thought out IMO.
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2013-09-02, 12:46 PM
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[Ignore Me] #7 | ||
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First Sergeant
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So basically your issue is that some of the tr kit is op and you wan to ride that gravytrain.
The TR are op in several areas hence their huge pop on all servers but that doesn't ,ran the NC suck. Just that the tr need a nerf on the striker wad and prowler that's the issue you have but are going about it wrong. |
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2013-09-02, 12:48 PM
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[Ignore Me] #8 | |||
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Sergeant Major
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Sounds like you came into this thread just to whine about the TR. No one cares about your hate-train, brah. - - - - - - - - - Definitely agree about the NC MAX's lack of diversity. I don't like NC guns though. I switched to TR just because of how tired I was of NC weaponry. I don't think the high-damage/high-recoil/low-clip/low-RoF philosophy works well in a competitive shooter environment. Last edited by BlaxicanX; 2013-09-02 at 12:50 PM. |
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2013-09-02, 12:54 PM
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[Ignore Me] #9 | ||
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First Sergeant
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He started on the tr that's why I used then I have no real hate for those dung dwelling bottom feeders. But we all know that the prowler is king of he mbt's not massivly op but certainly the king by a margin and well the striker is just...... well need I say it. Other then that the tr aren't bad but his reasoning for the nc needing buffs is because the tr are top dogs in specific areas.
We all have es kit that sucks stuff we don't use at all some may have wasted sc on it and its been rotting for 6 months. But to say the nc max needs a buff is like asking to buff the striker or roll back he zoe Max to pre nerf state. He just argues the wrong way. |
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2013-09-02, 12:58 PM
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[Ignore Me] #10 | |||
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Private
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The Striker is here to stay. The devs are working on a fix to the Striker's "bugs" but they've made no mention of any intent to balance or nerf the weapon in any regard. After the Strikers bugs are worked out, it will still be OP as hell and can deny vehicle presence in a large radius around a defended point (or out in the open as some TR like to do :{ ) WAAY better than anyone else can. The Striker is this game's measure of how far an empire's "traits" or "empire specific units" can be pushed in the name of "superiority" and NC has nothing that even approaches that level. VS have the ZOE Max which is now balanced more or less against other Maxes, but is still OP against infantry and it should stay there, that's a very good place for it. The Scythe is DEADLY when paired with a pilot that can keep his distance in a dogfight to exploit the tiny frame from his enemy. If he even has decent aim he will win every dogfight because the Hailstorm synergizes with this. VS has nice things too, maybe not always to the level of TR, and I would campaign for a VS revamp as well, but NC needs it more IMO. VS is more or less functional at this point in the game, NC still feels like we're relatively unchanged since Beta + the Phoenix. Here's something I wanted to say earlier, but didn't think of it in time. The NC have no unit that has AI superiority, nothing even approaching it, however, not every NC unit has AV superiority either... sometimes that's given to VS or TR... so if we give at least one NC unit AI superiority, it could go a LONG way, to revamping NC in a meaningful way that could also be more fun for NC players. I'm not even sure if this would be possible for the current units we have in the game, we might need to add in a whole new unit so that the NC would have the AI superiority they so very much need and deserve. Last edited by DashRendar; 2013-09-02 at 01:01 PM. |
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2013-09-03, 06:11 AM
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[Ignore Me] #11 | ||
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Contributor Lieutenant General
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TR have retaken their crown as the noob empire. NC is definitely harder to play and much harder to like.
The ML 85 needed to be what the Halberd is right now, but having two weapons like that wasn't necessary. The current ML85 is barely an NC weapon. I'd change it to be an analog of the Lightning HEAT gun personally. As for the Modified Enforcer, well give it a 30 round magazine and see if it doesnt become useful. In theory it isn't a bad weapon, but the small mag trumps any upsides. Another option is to make it a vehicle mounted version of the Raven. The Reaver needs the Vanguard shield. I don't know if that will truly be what makes it competitive, but I'd like to see how it does with it. NC infantry are still dealing with longer TTKs than TR/VS, especially at anything beyond close range. But our TTK at close range isn't anything to gloat about either. Everyone gets the pump shotties, so we don't even have that advantage in our corner.
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Post at me bro.  |
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2013-09-03, 06:59 AM
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[Ignore Me] #12 | ||
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Major
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Thing about the reaver is that experienced pilots take advantage of the extra afterburner and can nearly constantly pull off maneuvers when you attack them. Large hit box or not this is a good advantage in the hands of skilled players.
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2013-09-03, 07:38 AM
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[Ignore Me] #13 | |||
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Lieutenant Colonel
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I also disagree with a lot of people on the NC MAX not being diverse enough. Sure we don't have the range the other factions do. However, we have it where it counts 99% of the time and that is the CQC. A Decked out NC MAX with maxed out Riot Shield is no laughing matter and 90% of the time I am able to close ground more than enough to take down what I want with very minimal damage. I don't agree with the whole premise of the NC needed to be "Revamped". I lean more towards people need to learn how to properly play the faction.
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Last edited by Hmr85; 2013-09-03 at 11:28 AM. |
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2013-09-03, 08:06 AM
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[Ignore Me] #14 | |||
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Contributor General
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__________________
  "Don't matter who did what to who at this point. Fact is, we went to war, and now there ain't no going back. I mean shit, it's what war is, you know? Once you in it, you in it! If it's a lie, then we fight on that lie. But we gotta fight. " Slim Charles aka Tallman - The Wire BRTD Mumble Server powered by Gamercomms |
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Re: The Central Thread for Revamping (Not OPing) NC as a Faction
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