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Old 2013-11-05, 11:57 AM   [Ignore Me] #61
maradine
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Re: No Heavy Assault LMG deserves .75 ADS speed...VS.


What are you, on a timer?
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Old 2013-11-05, 12:11 PM   [Ignore Me] #62
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Re: No Heavy Assault LMG deserves .75 ADS speed...VS.


Another Dreamcast QQ thread eh? Old faithful... Carry on...
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Old 2013-11-05, 01:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #63
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Re: No Heavy Assault LMG deserves .75 ADS speed...VS.


No joke... for the longest time I just assumed a LOT of VS HA were speed hacking.
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Old 2013-11-05, 02:59 PM   [Ignore Me] #64
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Re: No Heavy Assault LMG deserves .75 ADS speed...VS.


Originally Posted by maradine View Post
When the argument degrades into "I'm looking at your stats to justify my argument", you automatically lose. It's like Godwin's Law for game forums. You've exhausted rational discourse and are now that guy.
So you're telling me that I can win all my sniper/infiltrator balance arguements by pointing to my stats and telling everyone I'm right and they are wrong cuz look at dem headshots???


On topic, I think it's fine to have .75ADS movement modifiers on the Orion/SVA-88. It is a powerful attribute, and I think the game is relatively well balanced around that fact. Sure you could argue for a few tweaks to some LMG's (compare the T32 Bull to the SVA-88) for balance sake, but by no means game-breaking.

And I think it's good that the NS weapon has this modifier as well so other factions can access it.

Are these class of weapons making the HA overpowered (which is what the OP was getting at)? Nah. HA's are in a pretty good place right now, perhaps a bit too much of a swiss army knife on the ground (pretty good at everything), but I find far more utility and enjoyment out of my medic and LA and infiltrator builds.
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Old 2013-11-05, 04:09 PM   [Ignore Me] #65
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Re: No Heavy Assault LMG deserves .75 ADS speed...VS.


Originally Posted by Mustarde View Post
So you're telling me that I can win all my sniper/infiltrator balance arguements by pointing to my stats and telling everyone I'm right and they are wrong cuz look at dem headshots???
No, I'm telling you precisely the opposite. Personal performance is the last bastion of a losing argument. More to the point, I said that 6 months ago. This is why we don't necro threads.
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Old 2013-11-05, 04:19 PM   [Ignore Me] #66
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Re: No Heavy Assault LMG deserves .75 ADS speed...VS.


I won't say the Orion is OP but to the people saying strafing speed isn't a big deal I have to ask what game have you been playing? Strafing is king.

*Edit* I will say that the VS HA seems to have the lowest buy in of all the factions though.
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Old 2013-11-05, 04:40 PM   [Ignore Me] #67
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Re: No Heavy Assault LMG deserves .75 ADS speed...VS.


Originally Posted by Blynd View Post
erm the mcg ........

your obviously have little to no experience with the tr ha weapons as you forgot about that one
That isn't an LMG.....The MCG is only really good close range.

The Orion is good at close range,meduim/slighly long range, specially with the ADS buff/RoF/Bullet velocity.

You should own most people at medium range with all those advantages.


An Orion VS will destroy an MCG TR at Medium range or any range where hipfire doesn't work.


No HA LMG should have that much power.
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Old 2013-11-05, 05:34 PM   [Ignore Me] #68
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Re: No Heavy Assault LMG deserves .75 ADS speed...VS.


Originally Posted by KesTro View Post
I won't say the Orion is OP but to the people saying strafing speed isn't a big deal I have to ask what game have you been playing? Strafing is king.

*Edit* I will say that the VS HA seems to have the lowest buy in of all the factions though.
It is a big deal...Only people saying 33% more strafing speed doesn't matter is probably people who never play infantry in there lives because it does matter.

The thing about the orion is that it has RoF/Bullet Velocity too, their is ZERO disadvantage in head to head scenarios against almost any gun (except Shotgun/Heavy Weapons at super close range)...The Orion has a nice advantage over all other guns at meduim range.

Originally Posted by maradine View Post
No, I'm telling you precisely the opposite. Personal performance is the last bastion of a losing argument. More to the point, I said that 6 months ago. This is why we don't necro threads.
Yes I checked how much he played infantry since that person as I recall said ADS 33% buff doesn't even matter. I was curious if he even played Infantry at all. Guess what he didn't have that much experience so I simply pointed out the truth.

It was about experience, not performance, big difference...I saw that he rarely had any kills at all with the weapons, which obviously means he doesn't have much combat experience.

I never even mentioned K/D Ratio or score per minute or any sort of "performance" stat....

Like I said before, I don't say my opinion on Tank vs Tank battles or ESF vs ESF battles because I have no experience in them.

Originally Posted by Mustarde View Post
So you're telling me that I can win all my sniper/infiltrator balance arguements by pointing to my stats and telling everyone I'm right and they are wrong cuz look at dem headshots???


On topic, I think it's fine to have .75ADS movement modifiers on the Orion/SVA-88. It is a powerful attribute, and I think the game is relatively well balanced around that fact. Sure you could argue for a few tweaks to some LMG's (compare the T32 Bull to the SVA-88) for balance sake, but by no means game-breaking.

And I think it's good that the NS weapon has this modifier as well so other factions can access it.

Are these class of weapons making the HA overpowered (which is what the OP was getting at)? Nah. HA's are in a pretty good place right now, perhaps a bit too much of a swiss army knife on the ground (pretty good at everything), but I find far more utility and enjoyment out of my medic and LA and infiltrator builds.
HA have so much power right now....I don't think anybody has an edge on them head to head at all.....Now give the LMG .75 speed, thats just plain overkill to any other class/any other HA.

Specially with the ORION, like I been saying it has RoF,33% more strafing speed, fast bullet velocity,ooo yeah a shield for HA.....All that adds up and is a nice advantage over everybody else.

Is ridiculous that an HA has .75 speed...on top of all those advantages.

Originally Posted by Badjuju View Post
I have spent a fair bit of time on all factions, particularly TR and VS(which use to be my main). It is my opinion that the Orion and SV-88 are the best LMGs the game has to offer at the moment for their respective niches. However, I wouldn't say the advantage that they provide is as great as the author insinuates.

I am going to ignore the NS lmg as I don't find it to be a good weapon making it rather irrelevant. You can easily make arguments for personal preference for certain traits but I think each faction has a better weapon for any situation you may be using it in.

A 33% strafing speed buff while ADS is a very strong benefit plain and simple. As the two LMGs already have excellent stats for their roles, it really sets them apart. It is going to make you harder to hit, thus increasing the chances you will survive any given engagement (assuming you take full advantage of it). It is something I notice whether going against or playing a VS heavy using one of these two weapons. I should probably mention that part of my reasoning for declaring these LMGs king is my firm belief that it is the close to medium range engagements that matter the most in this game (infantry wise), which is their territory.

This isn't to say that other factions cant compete or do not have their own weapons with their own benefits. All three factions have some great weapons to choose from, I just don't think the have as well rounded and benefits as the Orion and SV-88.

The biggest downside to the VS lmgs is mag size. Then comes the argument of at what point does the benefits of having a larger mag start to plain off, allowing other attributes to shine more. 100 rounds? 150? 200? My optimal set up would probably have at least 75 rounds (for squad play), then start putting the rest to reload speed. This gives enough rounds to take on a decent sized push or stream of players. At a certain point though I am going to want to reload to refresh my mag and don't want to go down because I am caught in a longer reload. I prefer weapons which allow me to reload in between engagements with out much penalty allowing me too maintain a more steady and faster pace.

This is why I am not bothered too much by the smaller mag size of the VS LMGs when it comes to my personal preference. I just don't feel the need for the extra rounds benefits me as much as the ability to spend shorter periods out side of the fight. Some people may feel different and want 150 rounds, which is fine and understandable. However these two traits are kind of in a tug of war with each other, so depending on where you stand on reload vs. mag side preferences, the VS movement speed buff may or may not be a flat out benefit.

If I had to pick an LMG to use and would be stuck with it. I would pick orion for solo or small squad play, SV-88 for full squad or platoon play, fallowed closely by the anchor then Carv. This is how I feel LMG balance falls for those close to med/long engagements (admittedly i haven't used the anchor in a while, but my outfit is on NC a fair bit and like the anchor over carv, but it easily be the other way around).

I personally think the VS are the clear cut winners, but its not by allot and nothing I am going to hold grievances over, especially in a game trying to emphasize faction traits.
I agree with what you say...LMG's are absolutely the kings in close/meduim range where most infantry battles take place. This is why giving the HA and speed buff advantage is even more ridiculous.

The whole magazine clip thing, sure VS has less bullets but like you said they have quicker reload times. Personally I gotten use to guns with less bullets and I like the fact I can reload much faster...It's not really negative.


The problem I have with it is that their isn't Empire Faction Traits in HA.

Like I said the Orion weapon has Highest RoF/33% speed buff/Good Bullet Velocity...Their is no HA weapon in the TR side that beats in any of that except bullet velocity but you need to sacrifice RoF...It's just a lot of little advantages which all add up...They are king in head to head battles.

So if their was 33% speed buff for the Orion but the RoF was less, then maybe I would understand the whole empire faction traits argument.

However looking at the bigger picture, Infantry battle wise, 33% speed buff on HA is just overkill for any other Class going up against them....I mean not only do you have to deal with the Shield/LMG weapons that are amazing in close/Medium distances but now the guy with the shield could out strafe you...Thats a big deal. So in that sense, I think that is really wrong.
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Old 2013-11-05, 10:48 PM   [Ignore Me] #69
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Re: No Heavy Assault LMG deserves .75 ADS speed...VS.


Originally Posted by Dreamcast View Post
I agree with what you say...LMG's are absolutely the kings in close/meduim range where most infantry battles take place. This is why giving the HA and speed buff advantage is even more ridiculous.

The whole magazine clip thing, sure VS has less bullets but like you said they have quicker reload times. Personally I gotten use to guns with less bullets and I like the fact I can reload much faster...It's not really negative.


The problem I have with it is that their isn't Empire Faction Traits in HA.

Like I said the Orion weapon has Highest RoF/33% speed buff/Good Bullet Velocity...Their is no HA weapon in the TR side that beats in any of that except bullet velocity but you need to sacrifice RoF...It's just a lot of little advantages which all add up...They are king in head to head battles.

So if their was 33% speed buff for the Orion but the RoF was less, then maybe I would understand the whole empire faction traits argument.

However looking at the bigger picture, Infantry battle wise, 33% speed buff on HA is just overkill for any other Class going up against them....I mean not only do you have to deal with the Shield/LMG weapons that are amazing in close/Medium distances but now the guy with the shield could out strafe you...Thats a big deal. So in that sense, I think that is really wrong.
As i argued before, i agree that the 33% speed buff is very strong and that it is a large part of why I think VS LMGs are the best overall, but still I don't think it is a huge imbalance, definitely not game breaking.

The biggest issue with classes going up against heavies is resist shield + nano-weave. A heavy rocking that combo should not loose to any any other class, or any heavy not suited up the same. You take this incredibly strong set up and stick a .75 lmg in their hand, then yes you have a killing machine. However you have to think they will tone down resist shield at some point, and then the speed buff wont be as noticeable as you wont have to land the absurd amount of bullets it takes atm to drop a resist/nano heavy. That would be the root of the problem from my perspective.

Also keep in mind that their is suppose to be a weapons balance pass coming up.
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Old 2013-11-05, 11:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #70
typhaon
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Re: No Heavy Assault LMG deserves .75 ADS speed...VS.


Originally Posted by Badjuju View Post
As i argued before, i agree that the 33% speed buff is very strong and that it is a large part of why I think VS LMGs are the best overall, but still I don't think it is a huge imbalance, definitely not game breaking.

The biggest issue with classes going up against heavies is resist shield + nano-weave. A heavy rocking that combo should not loose to any any other class, or any heavy not suited up the same. You take this incredibly strong set up and stick a .75 lmg in their hand, then yes you have a killing machine. However you have to think they will tone down resist shield at some point, and then the speed buff wont be as noticeable as you wont have to land the absurd amount of bullets it takes atm to drop a resist/nano heavy. That would be the root of the problem from my perspective.

Also keep in mind that their is suppose to be a weapons balance pass coming up.
Why are you calling it a 33% speed boost? Isn't it 50%?

No. It isn't game breaking, but I think it still offers a significant advantage - particular in smaller engagements - the advantage being lessened in larger ones by the more likely presence of mass AOE and just lots and lots of rounds.

I'd dial it back to .6 and see how things play.
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Old 2013-11-08, 05:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #71
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Re: No Heavy Assault LMG deserves .75 ADS speed...VS.


Originally Posted by Badjuju View Post
As i argued before, i agree that the 33% speed buff is very strong and that it is a large part of why I think VS LMGs are the best overall, but still I don't think it is a huge imbalance, definitely not game breaking.

The biggest issue with classes going up against heavies is resist shield + nano-weave. A heavy rocking that combo should not loose to any any other class, or any heavy not suited up the same. You take this incredibly strong set up and stick a .75 lmg in their hand, then yes you have a killing machine. However you have to think they will tone down resist shield at some point, and then the speed buff wont be as noticeable as you wont have to land the absurd amount of bullets it takes atm to drop a resist/nano heavy. That would be the root of the problem from my perspective.

Also keep in mind that their is suppose to be a weapons balance pass coming up.
It is a pretty decent size imbalance at the Infantry level...Having a shield/High RoF/LMG that is good small/meduim distance/and ADS speed buff on top of all that makes the VS HA the toughest.

Also it makes the TR HA not unique....VS HA has both ADS Speed buff/High RoF.....TR HA has nothing on them at all.


I hope those weapons balance tones down the ADS speed for the LMG's at least.

As for Resist Shield, I never use it....I think it might be great if you know u are gonna get into a fight but other wise, I feel the Adrenaline shield is much better because you regen with kills.
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Old 2013-11-08, 05:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #72
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Re: No Heavy Assault LMG deserves .75 ADS speed...VS.


Adrenaline shield and Resist shield come down to personal preference. It just depends weather or not you want to completely negate some damage or mitigate a percentage of it. If you want to talk numbers there was a thread a couple of months ago where I 'believe' the outcome was that the resist shield was going to keep you alive longer than the nano or adrenaline shield as long as you're not taking a tank round to the face.
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Old 2013-11-08, 07:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #73
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Re: No Heavy Assault LMG deserves .75 ADS speed...VS.


Originally Posted by KesTro View Post
Adrenaline shield and Resist shield come down to personal preference. It just depends weather or not you want to completely negate some damage or mitigate a percentage of it. If you want to talk numbers there was a thread a couple of months ago where I 'believe' the outcome was that the resist shield was going to keep you alive longer than the nano or adrenaline shield as long as you're not taking a tank round to the face.
I read the numbers...If I remember correctly Resist Shield is only better if you know you are gonna get into the fight, so you have the resist on already before you even get shot.

Otherwise, if you get shot first before turning on the resist shield, it isn't that good since you have already lost shield/health.

Seems it will be good for perfect scenario where you know u are going to fight or a player who is stationary and knows when he is gonna expose himself to getting shot.

But for players who rush a lot, like me, who tend to get shot from behind...I feel that it isn't that great, but maybe I should try it out more.

I also don't like having it on when you think you are gonna face somebody because I feel slow.
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