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Old 2012-12-20, 10:41 AM   [Ignore Me] #31
Whiteagle
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Oroshi View Post
I know where your coming from Hamma, I run a small outfit my self, and find we are going down in numbers. I fail to see why 'Outfits' have been so neglected by SOE in a team game, surely it should have been a core feature, not some tack on addition with the promise of an Outfit expansion with in the next 12 months.

They should have included an in game section that allowed Outfits to advertise, and be searchable, not everyone checks forums, and spam invites don't normally yield good long term members, or a community feel.

There is so much they should have included at launch with PS2, for example:
  • Outfit decals, even if it was some sort of rudimentary system to make them, though being able to upload your own would be great. It would have allowed for outfits to be identified in the field, by simply added two decal slot on vehicles, they would have been room for people to display their outfit colors and personalize their vehicle of choice at the same time.
  • A better Outfit page would have worked too, with the MOTD, then separate slots for Outfit website, and VOIP of choice.

There again even if they had provided it, smaller outfit and non-zergfit, are not where the players are, due to the way the game works, by design or fault, its currently about the zerg, so your stuck either blending into it, or off else where doing stuff to help the empire as a whole, and not being noticed.

My Outfit is good at what we do, we have a very good understanding of the map, and the flow of the battles, and can quickly resolve the fight. The number of old style Tech Plant fights we ending in a few minutes of getting there is high, yet is goes unnoticed.

We too have started the thoughts of disbanding, and joining a larger outfit, so we have more people to play with.
Indeed, a lot more can be done for Outfits out of SOE...

...Too bad free MMOs just want to screw guilds over...
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:42 AM   [Ignore Me] #32
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Quantum Dawn is actually closing recruitment sometime today to prevent something like this from happening. Recruit too many and no one will know no one. It would be a zergfit with no tactics.

Now, the problem. Planetside 2 heavily rewards numbers as a means to victory. You don't necessarily need tactics to take any base or outpost. However, if the game design required tactics (more advanced tactics) as a means to victory, then this might make numbers less relevant. As of right now, the generators and critical points of a base are like open wounds ready to be infected.

I believe the solution to the problem can be found in the design of bases and outposts.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:44 AM   [Ignore Me] #33
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


You know, with 'units' being specific to servers, there is absolutely no reason why they should not be actively talking to each other, developing operational plans. It is, after all, a persistent battle space. Just as an example...establish key areas specific to outfits. Nothing wrong with sharing battle space, but as near as I can tell, it's just a grab bag of 'lets fight guys here'.

Even the smaller outfits could find their role, just as a BDE within a Division...a Battalion within a Brigade...a Company within a Battalion...a Platoon within a Company...

All of those elements, and even further down, have a role...a mission. None of those elements is able to operate at full potential without coordiantion. Even the bigger outfits.
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Old 2012-12-20, 10:59 AM   [Ignore Me] #34
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Don't get me wrong, we still have a great time playing. It is just sad to see our great game turning into the mindless BF3 experience. Professional gamers showing off their skills, steam rolling over the people who are the core of the game. Then laughing when people quit.....
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:01 AM   [Ignore Me] #35
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Ive removed references to specific outfits, I don't want this to become some kind of outfit argument about one specific outfit or another.. please do not reference specific outfits.
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:06 AM   [Ignore Me] #36
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


I was going to mention YOUR outfit actually, Hamma. Looking very snazzy today, I must say.
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:08 AM   [Ignore Me] #37
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Outfit size limit? Specify "zerg" servers? What ever the answer may be, SOE will have to reconize the problem to deal with it. As long as they are making money, will they care?
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:09 AM   [Ignore Me] #38
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


I don't think the problem is outfit size but rather an effective way for smaller groups to communicate. In my opinion command chat is too easily available and the vast majority of people just ignore it. I'd like to see SOE implement some type of way for smaller squads to combine their efforts. Make it available ONLY after the groups have somehow linked. Maybe put something in the game that allows one squad to invite other squads, not in a platoon but in some form of objective communication portal.

Challenge is, there's far too many master strategists in this game. The minute you say "move to X" someone is going to say "I think we should...."
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:12 AM   [Ignore Me] #39
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Hey, at least you're seeing some semblance of strategy. For the TR on my server, strategy appears to be limited to 'to the Crown!!!!'.

ugh...
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:16 AM   [Ignore Me] #40
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


I never played PS1. Did it ever have this problem? If so how was it delt with?
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:21 AM   [Ignore Me] #41
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by SGTHACK View Post
I never played PS1. Did it ever have this problem? If so how was it delt with?
It didn't have this problem.
  • Bases were defensible.
  • Engineers could lay more mines - which doubled as anti armour and anti-personel.
  • AMS had an invisibility bubble - which helps the smaller force and isn't necessary on a larger force.
  • Buildings had doors and windows, ie tanks spam couldn't happen.
  • The previous base took longer to hack, which means if you were kicked out of a base you could retreat to the next one and have time to set up a defensive position before the enemy arrived.
  • ttk was slower therefore it was easier to hold positions.

In PS1 the best and most tactical outfits were often the ones that restricted their numbers.
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:23 AM   [Ignore Me] #42
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


I agree, Hamma. Back in Sept. I made a forum post and blog entry called, in part, Steamrollside, because of this issue. It frustrated the hell out of me in beta to watch both the NC and the VS push the TR to the warpgate every day, rather than fight each other. There was nothing the TR could against massive zergs on the east and west side of the map; we were simply rolled over at every base, even when we crammed 30 or people into a meaningless outpost - 100+ people, with tanks, libs, and esfs take NS Refinery.... Sadly, this concept carried through to live as the dominant way to play the game.

Strangely the most fun I had in PS2 was in beta when the gal was a spawn point and we could take any base at any time. I always thought the "front line" talk was a bunch of crap. Why have the other bases if you're going to fight at the middle swath of them the vast majority of the time? They should have just made it so all bases/outposts/locations need 3 people to flip the point and each base gave a better bonus than the lolresources that no one cares about.

As for the zergfits themselves, I had to make my own guild just eliminate the spam invites on those rare occasions that I bother playing. They are almost as bad as the medic rez request pop ups - no idiot, I don't want you to rez me in the middle of a fire fight so I can be killed instantly again, fuck off already... They need an auto-block for that crap... Anyhow, I ran with *a large guild* in beta, which was amusing for *the leader's* antics, but the game play was little more than a spastic over use of /suicide travel to answer all threats with superior numbers and "the right tool for the job" every single time. Sure it's effective at "winning", but it's boring and kind of lame, because you know you're going to win. Also, there were very few times when just one or two squads were told to hold a place, likely because it was damned near impossible to actually do so, save for biolabs, the crown, and vanu archives. In the end, I decided that the chaotic jumping around from place to place game play, combined with the zero charisma *leader* wannabe squad leaders were not my idea of fun. I'd rather play with a handful of people doing something that feels more linear and meaningful.

Planetside 2 isn't actually fun to play. The zergwaves are a large part of that.

Stew360 road my ass once in beta, because I wouldn't get out of a turret to let him and his two buddies shoot me. However, by staying in that turret I not only destroyed their Gal (or lib?) but 4 other air vehicles and chased away a few others as well. We held Mao. I used "common sense" when it came to the enemies near me, but more importantly, I sat in that turret and did my job to help defend the base as part of the overall TR team. It was not a huge force that pushed on us and the battle could have gone either way... And it was something fun that I remember. That simply does not seem to happen on Matherson, where bases are either empty or being rolled over by 100+ attackers and perhaps 5 to 10 defenders.

The way people are playing PS2 sure isn't helping to make up for the shortcomings of the game itself.


Removed outfit specific references.
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Last edited by Tatwi; 2012-12-20 at 12:33 PM. Reason: whoah... smartphone + posting + kids jumping on me = typos galore!
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:28 AM   [Ignore Me] #43
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


As outfit leader of a small outfit I can definately agree that this is a problem. We're still hanging in there though and hoping that things will change, but it is very clear that zerging is currently the way to go in this game.

I think the major issue is that there are no side objectives in PS2. There are no NTU silo's to fill, no bases to drain, no lattice to cut, no generators to keep down and no mods or LLU's to run. This was typical small outfit stuff that my outfit was doing in support of the zerg in PS1. Most of it would be responded to by similar small and focused outfits. PS2 has simplified things so much that this has been lost and the result is nothing but zerging.

And as others have said already: I am wondering what the devs had in mind when they thought about outfits in PS2. There's no outfit decals, you cannot even display your full outfit name and outfit management tools are spotty at best. You can be proud of your outfit as much as you want, but you'll be just another random 4-letter tag in the zerg, which is a shame.
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:30 AM   [Ignore Me] #44
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


PS2 lacks several components (not an exhaustive list - there are more) which curtail smaller groups or outfits from feeling more effective:

1) Defensibility. Smaller outfits in PS1 could hold towers and bases from moderately greater numbers, as well as carry out Generator holds, etc.. Defense is where small outfits should most easily find a niche, but PS2's base design offers few killzones; no doors; no swathes of infantry-only areas (underground or otherwise) where vehicles cannot camp and one shot.

2) Defense xp. Yes, the 15% is there supposedly, but it's not enough to encourage it, IMO. Especially given Point #1, where most people don't want to simply be farmed when outnumbered - adding more significant rewards would help this a slight bit.

3) Strategic Meta. In the absence of a Lattice or a game system which might funnel Empires to more predictable areas to conquer, it's tough to know where to set up a Defense - since all hexes can be capped at any time, you could be quite bored awaiting that assault for an hour. Even improving Empire-chat tools might assist in this, as players could report sightings of Enemy movement. All we have is /yell.

As a smallish outfit, you can of course be on Offense as well, but the quick-flipping of territories (5 mins after you cap, it's back to the other side already) and absent Metagame (to feel like it's made a difference), even the Big Outfits will grow bored as well.
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Old 2012-12-20, 11:36 AM   [Ignore Me] #45
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Sorry, but PS1 sounds like more fun for the thinking player. Thank you "ringring".
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