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Old 2012-12-20, 04:08 PM   [Ignore Me] #91
Kracken
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Kracken View Post
I rarely post here. I'll say this.
  • There are in reality very few large outfits
  • It's just two months after launch
  • There are only three continents to go with three Empires
  • If you cannot be effective with a squad examine what you are doing and how your are doing it
  • Go to the PS2 website and count the number of times it states MASSIVE SCALE
One more thing.

Go make more friends.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:09 PM   [Ignore Me] #92
basti
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Miir View Post
At first glance it is easy to put the blame on large outfits for unbalancing the game. But really it's the games design that's at fault here. Getting steam rolled all the time is not fun. Not for the smaller group and even over time not for the larger group either. Unless the intent was to make a game that only a few large outfits play and everyone else just sits on the side lines they have a lot of work to do.

They really need their mission system to be able to pair up outfits based on size so fighting was more balanced that way.

They also need a way to coordinate with alliance members. I posted this back in beta. Still applies.



However there needs to be a cap on the amount of members you can have in an alliance. If there is no cap what would likely happen with a tool like this is it would be allow larger outfits to form into even larger groups and we'd continue to have the same issues we are having now. The alliance feature needs to be for the smaller groups to organize at the same level as a large outfit.

A large outfit might have 100 members online. So an alliance should be capped at 100 members. Maybe this could be dynamic based on the largest enemy outfit online at the time?


Ingame systems are pointless. I dont need an ingame alliance system, i use TS3 and a forum anyway. That ingame alliance system my give us access to some fancy tools, but we can just create 2, 4 or a hundred alliances if we need to.


Same with a member limit to outfits. Just create more outfits.



There really is no problem folks, large outfits are fine. Smaller outfits can deal with them, if they team up and work together. In the end, 100 people will always win against 10, thats just the way it is and always has been.






Folks, really, stop trying to find issues in the game when the only reason those issues exist is you. Fix stuff yourself, form an alliance.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:10 PM   [Ignore Me] #93
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Hamma View Post
I had a great discussion on Twitter last night about this and wanted to bring it here.

First off let me start this thread by saying this is NOT an attack on specific outfits. I will not allow people to argue about specific outfits, this discussion is about the size of outfits in general and whether or not you think they hurt the game. Also, I don't want to hear bs like "ohh you're doing it wrong" etc.

This has bothered me since late beta and is becoming more and more of an issue (imo) as of late. I don't have solution for it because there really isn't one but I want to see what peoples thoughts are.

My outfit is smaller in size compared to most. We typically run about a half a platoon or so. We are finding it difficult to find a solid role for us in the game that isn't boring and doesn't involve getting steamrolled. This is becoming more and more difficult as time goes on. Huge outfits are able to put 100 or more people or more on an objective and essentially win with numbers in almost all fights. We are able to hold off, but it's simply a matter of time until we are struck down due to sheer numbers.

Smaller outfits are finding that they have to disband and join larger outfits if they want to even have fun, causing them to lose their own identity and be absorbed into massive teams because there are no recruits left to take. For me community is more important to a game than the game itself, hence why I've been doing this all these years.

Is having one massive outfit per empire what the developers intended? Is spam inviting every no outfit person in the game really a viable recruiting effort? How many of these people even know what they are joining?

What is everyones thoughts on this issue?
i completely agree but like you im not looking or the zergfits to be made obsolite but for the smaller outfits to be made more useful ie bringing in the ability to deny an empire tech or other benefits by taking a base offline and thus stopping the benefit ie old school ps1 gen holds.

these were always done by more mobile and close knit outfits - we [LFS]
blew all the blowable Gens on NC Hossin SIMULTANEOUSLY at one point, getting so many members onto a continent without creating a solitary hotspot and then coordinating the simultaneous gen drops with 30 odd players is the kind of gameplay that the smaller more mobile outfits can give to the game but atm as you say hamma the zerg is the only route atm.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:18 PM   [Ignore Me] #94
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


You get the smaller outfits working together effectively it then doesn't matter if there is a single 1000 player zergfit or ten 100 player outfits each with a couple squads online.

There might be an argument that multiple independent teams get their specialist jobs done better.

The key is communication.
The in game capabilities are useless and trivialized.

I started to write an analysis of /leader and /order. Instead I'll just put what I'd like to see as changes/features.

Continental command should be focused on active Squad and Platoon leaders.
  • The SL channels are moderated. Without a +voice you are read-only.
  • SL /leader is a continental channel
  • Active SL auto-join the leader channel.
  • Also By purchasing SL /leader cert you always join the 'moderated' channel
  • Players with SL /leader cert get a +voice if they are SL
  • Orders is continental only.
There should be two routes to 'Empire' command. Or outfit metagame.
The first is the leading of squads and investment in command certs.
The second recognizes the contribution of outfits.
  • A new SL /command cert with a moderated channel that covers every continent.
  • Players with SL /command cert always join channel.
  • Outfit leaders can assign 1 player per hundred members (up to 3 max) to have access +v to the command channel.
  • Active SL get voice in /comma
nd


This is all irrelevant the moment we get custom channels.
Ideally we would like to build relationships with outfits and self-moderate.

Other useful features would be intel based.
  • Reveal friendlies.
  • Reveal enemies.
The heat map of activity is .. halfway almost useful for continental.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:21 PM   [Ignore Me] #95
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by basti View Post
Hold your pants, this will hit your hard: I HAVE A SOLUTION!


Its called an alliance. Grab other Outfits of your empire, get your asses together on the same TS3 server, use channel commander to communicate with each other.

its what we are doing, and its working like a charm. Vanu Corp only holds a platoon in a good night, mostly only a squad or two. We wouldnt be able to do much on our own. But with a simple press of a button, we can call help when we need help.
This is just creating another zerg and doesn't solve the root cause that there are very few things for small groups to accomplish in PlanetSide 2.

Though I totally agree that's a great way to get shit done
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:28 PM   [Ignore Me] #96
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Hamma View Post
This is just creating another zerg and doesn't solve the root cause that there are very few things for small groups to accomplish in PlanetSide 2.

Though I totally agree that's a great way to get shit done

I do agree that there is not enough stuff for small outfits.

In fact, what can we actually do? Attack and defend bases. Thats it.


There is no behind enemy lines stuff, nothing to do in a empty hex that benefits the zerg, but doesnt put yourself into a zerg. No generators to blow and hold down to deny tech. No NTU drains, just nothing.

I guess thats gonna stay for a while, game needs time to evolve.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #97
QuantumMechanic
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


This problem has absolutely nothing to do with outfits or outfit size. You could be facing a massive non-outfit zerg army and have the same issue. The defenders could be a non-outfit pickup platoon and you'll have thes exact same issue.

The issue is, bases aren't designed with defense in mind. You need at least as many defenders as attackers to defend a large base (except for bio labs).

That's just wrong.

Last edited by QuantumMechanic; 2012-12-20 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:31 PM   [Ignore Me] #98
Dragonskin
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


The problem with giving small outfits something to do is.. what can you possibly give a small outfit to do that a large outfit would also be able to do? What makes a specific objective more small outfit friendly? Then why can't you do that in PS2 currently? How would you go about adding something similar to the game?

If you can answer those then maybe those things you bring up will be added to PS2 in the future.

Right now a lot of the problem is like what someone else mentioned. 3 factions and only 3 continents. You get 1 or possibly 2 factions rolling in a continent and then the other will take stuff on continents that the zergs aren't focusing on. Until there are more things to do then you can't really spread out the zerg or large guilds much so they will tend to gravitate to where the bigger fights are or they will just steamroll over anything not being contested.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #99
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by QuantumMechanic View Post
This problem has absolutely nothing to do with outfits or outfit size. You could be facing a massive non-outfit zerg army and have the same issue. The defenders could be a non-outfit pickup platoon and you'll have thes exact same issue.

The issue is, bases aren't designed with defense in mind. You need at least as many defenders as attackers to defend a large base (except for bio labs).

That's just wrong.
That is also a good point. Not only are bases hard to defend, but there aren't huge incentives to defend them. Resources come too fast and most objectives don't really matter because all anyone really wants is a Bio Lab and Tech Plant with a line going back to their Warpgate. The rest of the objectives are just there for extra capture points for most people.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:36 PM   [Ignore Me] #100
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Hamma View Post
This is just creating another zerg and doesn't solve the root cause that there are very few things for small groups to accomplish in PlanetSide 2.

Though I totally agree that's a great way to get shit done
So, to you, a "zerg" is simply a larger force, regardless of their level of coordination? An alliance of outfits is no different than a large organized outfit in that they are coordinating a large force. Assuming that the outfit or alliance is coordinating at all.

It would be great if there were more types of objectives, but don't think that larger outfits would not target these same objectives. We already do as much as we can behind enemy lines to interfere with the enemy.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:42 PM   [Ignore Me] #101
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Dragonskin View Post
The problem with giving small outfits something to do is.. what can you possibly give a small outfit to do that a large outfit would also be able to do? What makes a specific objective more small outfit friendly? Then why can't you do that in PS2 currently? How would you go about adding something similar to the game?

If you can answer those then maybe those things you bring up will be added to PS2 in the future.
Originally Posted by Whiteagle View Post
Originally Posted by Oroshi View Post
Added in additional objectives, I would remove the resource bonus away from the capture nodes, and added in new targets, that need to be defended to keep your resources coming in. These new targets would always be attack-able, no mater how far from the front lines they are. Basically they represent the empire logistics.

Imagine a resource silo, that fills up with resources say air, when its full it starts to give out air resources to your empire members, a hostile force could raid and steal these resources, and added them to their own empire's, and you'ld lose yours till it refills again. You give it a multiple step process so a team has to do it, 3 to 4 steps would do it, while they are emptying the silo they can not fight, so they would need some guards. While under attack it would flash and allow people to respond to it. The Zerg could be capping territory to their hearts content, and suddenly find they can't pull any more vehicles, as all their resources had been stolen.

Just some thoughts, once you start adding objectives and start to encourage zergs to split up, smaller outfits have a places, along side the larger ones too.
Eh, I don't know about making Territory completely worthless when it comes to Resources, but making bases actually play a part in your Faction's infrastructure would definitely be welcome.

Like say there were a few Air towers with "Air Resource Processors", Generators that are what actually give your Faction its Air Resources depending on what Air Resource territories they are connected to.

So say you have five Air Resource territories, if they were connected to one Generator they'd give you fifteen AR, but two would give you 30 and so on.

These bases would be constantly being infiltrated by enemy Spec Ops trying to disable your Infrastructure by destroying those Gens.
Bam!

Originally Posted by Dragonskin View Post
Right now a lot of the problem is like what someone else mentioned. 3 factions and only 3 continents. You get 1 or possibly 2 factions rolling in a continent and then the other will take stuff on continents that the zergs aren't focusing on. Until there are more things to do then you can't really spread out the zerg or large guilds much so they will tend to gravitate to where the bigger fights are or they will just steamroll over anything not being contested.
We can only hope... but then again if the new Continents have Outpost that are as indefensible as the old ones...
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #102
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Originally Posted by Dragonskin View Post
The problem with giving small outfits something to do is.. what can you possibly give a small outfit to do that a large outfit would also be able to do? What makes a specific objective more small outfit friendly? Then why can't you do that in PS2 currently? How would you go about adding something similar to the game?

If you can answer those then maybe those things you bring up will be added to PS2 in the future.

Right now a lot of the problem is like what someone else mentioned. 3 factions and only 3 continents. You get 1 or possibly 2 factions rolling in a continent and then the other will take stuff on continents that the zergs aren't focusing on. Until there are more things to do then you can't really spread out the zerg or large guilds much so they will tend to gravitate to where the bigger fights are or they will just steamroll over anything not being contested.
Easy.
If, say, blowing a tech plant gen removed tech benefit then that would be a good spec ops target and good for a small outfit, especially if it was the tech on Esamir.

If the small outfit and defended the gen the rest of teh empire could take advantage, you'd hope.

On the other hand it would also be a good target for the spec ops division of a large outfit such as Robo's, but also others and in which case the rest of their outfit could , hopefully take advantage.

The real problem, apart from spec ops oportunities, is not large outfits but inability to stop the zerg or a big outfit push. ie it's all about defensibility together with spec ops.

As I said before, I'm sure Higby et al would like for these types of things to be in the game but exactly how and when is open to speculation.

Oh and +1 for additional continents.

Further, why do some think additional continents mean that the population will be spread more widely? If that does happen (it didn't in PS1) it will become a major problem.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:56 PM   [Ignore Me] #103
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


No matter what happens, the zerg will live on. No amount of tweaks, changes or incentives will change that.

However, there are always exceptions to this rule, what I'm saying is that given a certain population level, the number of exceptions goes up. Right now, there are just a few running outside of the zerg. Increase the population and that number goes up, enough to provide smaller outfit activity, which I rather enjoy myself.

Right now it's all or nothing.
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Old 2012-12-20, 04:59 PM   [Ignore Me] #104
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


As a tactical officer in PG, I pretty much have resolved to not even log in because all that happens is tank spam and zergside precisely because of massive outfits and large as hell numbers of people naturally grouping up anyway.

There needs to be content for smaller, more precise outfits to thrive off of where large numbers of groups and armor won't work or isn't viable.

It also wouldnt hurt if bases were defensible and required thought and planning to take something that was actively defended. Though they nerf that at every turn, so, I just see zergside every day all day for the foreseeable future and the next couple of years.

right now, large groups of people hurt the game more than help, and a lot of it has to do with quick ttk and the nature of vehicles. it wouldnt hurt to make tanks require a dedicated gunner, or to significantly lengthen their spawn timer or increase the resource cost, either, but we know Smed's two cents on any of THAT.

The nature of air v ground dominance doesn't help, either. The requirement to have a dedicated a2a group for every ground detatchment hurts small outfits that are primarily mobile/mechanised infantry, and in some cases is prohibitive for some groups that don't have people to spare.

Its a large combination of the above, and the problem is only magnified in large groups of people, outfits or zerglings alike. Until the majority of that is fixed, this problem will remain, and is only likely to become worse and worse until there is a fundemental switch in developer design/intent.
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Last edited by p0intman; 2012-12-20 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 2012-12-20, 05:02 PM   [Ignore Me] #105
Lonehunter
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Re: Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2


Not mentioning outfit names should also include people posting to defend their outfit

On my server there is an outfit with over 1600 people, it's very open, anyone can join, anyone can listen, and they don't actually do much tactical play, but it helps them coordinate with more then 11 other people.

The effect large outfits can cause now is like the effect CR5s had on normal zerg in PS1. It's just to help coordinate, "Air go here, tanks meet up here, hit this target."

In my opinion the problem is the lack of command support from the game. The Mission System was sold as this huge keystone that tied new players and vets together, and it hasn't even been mentioned post launch.

We really don't have enough tools to coordinate on a large scale : /
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