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View Poll Results: Should Surge be removed from PS?
Yes, it's an all-around bad idea 13 16.05%
It should be removed until the warping issues are fixed 10 12.35%
The ability to use a weapon while surging should be taken out 30 37.04%
It's fine the way it is 28 34.57%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-02-11, 02:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #16
Gigabein
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Originally Posted by Queensidecastle
Maybe you should consider analyzing your internet connection or perhaps your PC because myself nor anyone I know has warp problems as you have described them.


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Old 2004-02-11, 02:12 PM   [Ignore Me] #17
BadAsh
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Originally Posted by Queensidecastle
I dont know why I keep arguing with you. Your ideas are illogical and dont properly address the real issue. Fortunatly the Devs arent going to do as you propose because it would be foolish. Its really too bad that you are suffering from so many Lag warps that you cant play the game but thats not my problem. Maybe you should consider analyzing your internet connection or perhaps your PC because myself nor anyone I know has warp problems as you have described them.
QSC,

Perhaps I�m missing something here but Krinsath�s argument has been very well thought out and reasonable. The counter solution you provided, the stamina drain adjustment, is not addressing what Krinsath is referring to. So increasing stamina drain on surge users negates the warping problem how? Your suggestion of 10 seconds of surge would be plenty of time to surge warp and get an easy kill.

If the problem were long distance surging a increased stamina drain would be the solution. But, the problem discussed here is the surge warping issue and the stamina drain increase you suggest is not a viable solution for that problem.
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Old 2004-02-11, 02:14 PM   [Ignore Me] #18
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I've played this game on multiple platforms and I see warping all the time. Different internet speeds, too.

It's not like the Loch Ness Monster. Warping exists.
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Old 2004-02-11, 02:18 PM   [Ignore Me] #19
Krinsath
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Originally Posted by Queensidecastle
I dont know why I keep arguing with you. Your ideas are illogical and dont properly address the real issue. Fortunatly the Devs arent going to do as you propose because it would be foolish. Its really too bad that you are suffering from so many Lag warps that you cant play the game but thats not my problem. Maybe you should consider analyzing your internet connection or perhaps your PC because myself nor anyone I know has warp problems as you have described them.
Illogical? Item A causes problem X. Problem X remains unresolved for extended periods of time, harming the overall project. Remove/modify Item A so that it no longer causes harm to the project...seems like pretty standard logic. I have yet to see you provide one suggestion that fixes the main problem with surge (the warping) without introducing even more (making the implant useless for those who only use it as a travel aide while still allowing it to be exploited, albeit in a much more limited fashion). So please, if you wish to discuss someone's ideas not properly addressing a problem, make sure you provide a good illustration of something that does.

Back to the logic argument, a shirt causes me to itch, which keeps me from working as effectively as I could as I spend so much time scratching. By your reasoning, it is illogical to change my shirt to get my performance back to where it should be. It goes straight back to "doctor doctor! It hurts when I do this!"...the answer is "Don't do that". Well, Surge is hurting PS. While the vote numbers are too low for anything conclusive, leaving surge alone is in the clear minority of opinion.

The Devs aren't doing anything because as said earlier, everyone already thinks they screwed up by not fixing it already, so why make those people who are happily exploiting upset by taking away their shiny toy? The damage has already been done, just roll with it and maybe it'll get fixed along the way.

The issue with warping on stairs has been a known problem for a long time. It can even affect people who are not surging if they get moving fast enough (or jump). I realize it's easier to hide behind the idea that someone else's machine or connection is inferior than to admit that the Surge implant needs to have some serious work done to it, but there are too many people saying that Surge is broken to just shrug and go "oh well".

It's also easy to adopt the elitist attitude of "well, you should get a better machine" but that's the exact attitude that will ensure that you don't have anyone to play PS with anymore. We're trying to analyze what is best for the game, and leaving in a feature that causes such frustrations to players and evidently (on the data gathered so far...again, far too small of a sample to be conclusive) has more than 2/3s saying that *something* needs to be done to it says quite clearly to me that leaving it in its current state is not the smartest idea.

Doesn't matter if YOU see the problem. That someone else sees the problem (and I'm sure there are people for whom surge made this game unplayable) should be enough to look into it. That this has been brought to the Devs attention time after time after time indicates that this is more than an isolated bug. It's a bug, and what's worse, it's an exploitable bug. I can't blame the implant, but leaving something in that causes problems is foolish. You don't leave cancer in your body, even if it is benign overall (Please note that is an illustrative metaphor...it is not meant to imply in any way that Surge or those who use it are a cancer).
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Old 2004-02-11, 02:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #20
dscytherulez
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Originally Posted by Happy lil' Elf
Best answer that I see is not to remove the ability to hold or fire a weapon while surging but to fuck the CoF of any weapon held while surging. It makes at least a little sense from a logical standpoint and would certainly help cut into the main problem of surge, that being that people run around with it on killing people who can't fight back because of the warping. If the surge monkies can't hit anything while surging anymore, maybe they'll stop doing it but even if they're too dense to stop they'll at least become much less annoying.
I myself love surge. I don't even use it with agile, I use it with my rexo to get places and to close gaps. Making it holster your weapon wouldn't be to good if you use it to get closer to your enemy because you have a shotgun.

I see Happy's solution the best.
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Old 2004-02-11, 02:28 PM   [Ignore Me] #21
Krinsath
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The only problem I see with Happy's idea is that if you're moving faster than your target, it isn't that hard to get close. CoF doesn't mean much at less than 5 meters. Sure, it'd help, but I don't know that it'd resolve anything. I still think the solution is to fix the PS engine so that warping doesn't occur (as I feel that's the only thing about Surge that's unbalancing), but evidently I'm in the minority.
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Old 2004-02-11, 02:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #22
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I bet you 50 dollars that surge doesnt get taken out. Care to take it Krinsath?

I still think the solution is to fix the PS engine so that warping doesn't occur (as I feel that's the only thing about Surge that's unbalancing), but evidently I'm in the minority
Sounds good to me. Removing Surge however is a dumb idea
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Old 2004-02-11, 02:35 PM   [Ignore Me] #23
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Even if someone has their weapon auto-holstered while they Surge, they are going to warp up and down stairs enough to be nearly unkillable by a lot of players.

Surge stinks. I think it should be removed and simultaneously replaced by a half-dozen new implants. New implants are overdue anyhow.
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Old 2004-02-11, 02:38 PM   [Ignore Me] #24
Krinsath
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You misunderstand. I'm not calling for the wholesale removal of Surge. I'm asking if Surge should be allowed to continue in it's current state when we have no word of when (if ever) it will be fixed. Giving it a temporary break is extreme, but also makes sure the Dev team actually works on it rather than other ideas.

Content is great, but little to no gameplay exploits > new Content. After all, who cares if the place looks pretty if it's built in the middle of a landfill?

With the pressure the Devs would be under to get that back in, I'd bet you'd see the problems wrapped up pretty damn quick (again, assuming they can be...and if they can't, the Devs would be *insanely* foolish to leave an unfixable exploit in the game)...and then the surgers could use their implant in peace without having to be harassed constantly.
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Old 2004-02-11, 02:41 PM   [Ignore Me] #25
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Isnt the surging a user side problem. Namely your undersized comps trying to run it. I see all the time people with large enough comps saying its not jumping. If im remembering correctly. isnt this mainly and issue with the entire player base not haveing enough resources to play the game. I mean obviously if it had been aproblem on the comps they tested it out on and it always jumped no matter what your comp is like then it wouldnt be in the game. So it seems to me the only logical answers is it IS all player based and people need to realize there playing with less of a comp than the game really requires and people need to get better comps to play and not try to get rid of something, that if im right, has only to do with the who knows what percentage of people playing who dont have the hardware to do it. So why change it then if it does work if like it should. Like i said i dont see how it could be any other way cause if it did that on sufficient systems then it wouldnt have gotten in the game.

If all of that is true it doesnt seem fair to do something to the game because a bunch of people trying to play a game they arent actualy capable of playing with the comps they have. Its not fair to those who could play it right. There should always be considerations on the players end to waht is there fault and what it the actual game.

You bring down a part of a game because its to advanced for your comp bacause it wil degrade a game. Its to precious a thing to have a game actualy advanced enough to have a problem like that.IMO Especialy with the last 5-10 years of nothing but slowly advancing game design.

Last edited by Ait'al; 2004-02-11 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 2004-02-11, 02:52 PM   [Ignore Me] #26
Krinsath
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It's actually a problem with the code in game and the way it predicts where you are going (location prediction being an almost required part of functional Internet gaming). It does a decent job in 2 dimensions, but with the 3rd it really gets thrown off the faster you're moving.

However, just for the sake of argument...the *recommended* specs from Sony compared to mine:

Windows� 98/2000/ME/XP (XP Pro)
Pentium� III 1.6 GHz or greater (1.8 P4)
512 MB RAM (1GB DDR RAM)
Direct3D compliant video card with 64MB+ RAM (Compliant card with 128MB RAM)
DirectX 8.1 compatible sound card (Sound Blaster)
Broadband Internet connection (Cable, average download speed of 170KB/s, average PS ping in the 90-120ms range)
8X speed CD-ROM (DVD-ROM)
3.5 GB hard drive space (Combined total of 175GBs HD space)
DirectX 8.1 or greater (9.0b)

So, against the *recommended* (meaning "will run well") specs...my computer exceeds every single one of them and I still see the issue. Sure, mine is more isolated than some out there, but I still see it and it's still distracting. Just to refute the idea that "oh, they tested it out on these computers and it worked fine"...they *know* there's a problem, they just don't know how to fix it.
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Old 2004-02-11, 02:58 PM   [Ignore Me] #27
Ait'al
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But what are the real specs for the game. Obviously they fucked them up a bit. What stats would get rid of hte problem, and others in the game, if any do?

Edit: It is luckily about to to get cheaper to get 2 gigs and up.

I going with, from what i know(or dont) about it then with, Find a way to fix the damn thing now! 8)

Last edited by Ait'al; 2004-02-11 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 2004-02-11, 03:04 PM   [Ignore Me] #28
Krinsath
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Who knows? I think the 512MB RAM is complete bunk, but that's another issue entirely. The major issue for the Devs is that they cannot be so cavalier about who can play the game. They have to make this work for that guy sitting at the minimum specs (well, not the biggest battles, but at least marginally) or else they're hamstringing themselves in the long run. They *need* people to play this game, it's their job but most people are not going to shell out $2000+ for a new computer to play a $50 game. Fewer people = smaller battles and less money = sucky PS. I'd personally like to see this have the longevity of EQ, but if they don't get after these bugs faster, I don't know if it will survive the release of HL2...granted, at the rate that's going PS will be around until 2027
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Old 2004-02-11, 03:08 PM   [Ignore Me] #29
SilverLord
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Ok...I didn't read this thread but this is my current position on the topic. While I use surge for my grunt needs...It seems that the only time when a surger warps is on stairs or jumping. I see this as the current problem because I see many people outdoors running and surging and warping one bit but if they go into a tower battle, hello warp bug. I think they need to worry about why it warps on the stairs and or jumping.
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Old 2004-02-11, 03:40 PM   [Ignore Me] #30
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I don't have probemls whit warping, and without surge lots of things would be a pain, liek running someplace with Rexo because i don't have a rexo accesible vech.

I think the surg should only be disable when holding any large size weapon, HA, AV, Deci, BD, maybee a few more that i can't think of(the ones that take up a whole holster and don't leave any room)
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