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Old 2012-07-10, 04:17 PM   [Ignore Me] #61
MrKWalmsley
First Sergeant
 
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


Originally Posted by Aberdash View Post
Making things easier makes it less frustrating and more accessible. The fewer number of times you have to yell at someone to shoot something the better.
No, you need to strike a balance. Being too hard frustrates people, being too easy creates boredom. Both are detrimental. In my opinion, having tanks require 2 people to function properly is not making the game frustratingly hard, it's just making it more challenging. I pitty the person who see's "quite easy" as more fun than "quite difficult".

Last edited by MrKWalmsley; 2012-07-10 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:20 PM   [Ignore Me] #62
Kayos
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


If I was driving a tank I would want control of the main gun. It lets you be effective solo if need be as well. I usually will be playing with friends and don't mind the option of handing off control of the main gun if I want but if none of my friends are online and I want to jump in a tank I shouldn't have to wait for someone to mount the main gun just to be effective.
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:21 PM   [Ignore Me] #63
Xyntech
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


Originally Posted by LordReaver View Post
Damn people.. It's such a simple solution.

Driver gets control of gun.
Driver has option of letting another player control gun.

Done.. Everybody is happy and problem is solved.


Do keep in mind, that if only the driver gets the primary gun on the MBT, nobody will ever mount the secondary gun. They will just go get another MBT and have two primary guns.
I still think that a full on sidegrade cert is the way to go, not just a button that releases the main gun to the gunner.

If it's just a release, then you still have the problem of 2 people being required to do the job of 1 person.

The only way to fix it is if the dedicated driver sidegrade also gives a noticeable boost to the vehicles armor.

The way I would handle it would be to call it a Heavy Battle Tank sidegrade. Nerf the speed slightly, buff up the armor (slightly in back, heavily on the front), and give the gunner control of the main gun. Possibly an even beefier main gun than the regular main gun.

At that point, you could even add a third seat for a second gunner to control an optional additional AA or other secondary turret.

The main design goal would be that a skilled dedicated driver and gunner pair would have 50/50 odds against a skilled driver of a normal MBT who had a second crew member controlling a secondary AV weapon, and 50/50 odds against two separate solo MBT's (depending on how well the solo MBT's manage to flank).

But I can absolutely envision an environment where dedicated gunners are not only viable, but desirable in a lot of situations while still coexisting with solo MBT's who would still be perfectly viable options for players who preferred that style.

Last edited by Xyntech; 2012-07-10 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:23 PM   [Ignore Me] #64
Gandhi
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


Originally Posted by wasdie View Post
That is true, but name a game that competes against EVE online... you can't.
Name a game that competes with Planetside 2. There isn't one. You say the only thing it has going for it is scale and persistence, which is exactly what set EVE apart from its competitors. That and the incredibly hardcore, inaccessible gameplay which by all rights shouldn't have caught on at all.

Anyway this is beside the point. I don't want Planetside 2 to be anywhere near as hardcore as that, and I certainly don't want to turn it into a niche milsim. Keep the MBT team based and offer the Lightning as a lone wolf alternative, that's all I'm saying.

And for the record I adore the Lightning in PS1, it's easily my favorite vehicle. I lone wolf in it all the time, but I still love the idea of MBTs needing crews, being more powerful and more threatening because of it.
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:24 PM   [Ignore Me] #65
Kayos
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


Originally Posted by Xyntech View Post
I still think that a full on sidegrade cert is the way to go, not just a button that releases the main gun to the gunner.

If it's just a release, then you still have the problem of 2 people being required to do the job of 1 person.

The only way to fix it is if the dedicated driver sidegrade also gives a noticeable boost to the vehicles armor.

The way I would handle it would be to call it a Heavy Battle Tank sidegrade. Nerf the speed slightly, buff up the armor (slightly in back, heavily on the front), and give the gunner control of the main gun. Possibly an even beefier main gun than the regular main gun.

At that point, you could even add a third seat for a second gunner to control an optional additional AA or other secondary turret.

The main design goal would be that a skilled dedicated driver and gunner pair would have 50/50 odds against a skilled driver of a normal MBT who had a second crew member controlling a secondary AV weapon, and 50/50 odds against two separate solo MBT's (depending on how well the solo MBT's manage to flank).

But I can absolutely envision an environment where dedicated gunners are not only viable, but desirable in a lot of situations while still coexisting with solo MBT's who would still be perfectly viable options for players who preferred that style.
Thats a good idea, I could live with that.
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:27 PM   [Ignore Me] #66
Gandhi
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


Originally Posted by Xyntech View Post
The way I would handle it would be to call it a Heavy Battle Tank sidegrade. Nerf the speed slightly, buff up the armor (slightly in back, heavily on the front), and give the gunner control of the main gun. Possibly an even beefier main gun than the regular main gun.
Well it's a good idea, but isn't this exactly what the difference is between a Lightning and an MBT?
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #67
Aberdash
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


Originally Posted by MrKWalmsley View Post
No, you need to strike a balance. Being too hard frustrates people, being too easy creates boredom. Both are detrimental. In my opinion, having tanks require 2 people to function properly is not making the game frustratingly hard, it's just making it more challenging. I pitty the person who see's "quite easy" as more fun than "quite difficult".
I'd say when your gunner is trying to shoot a reaver while there is a tank infront of you would be pretty frustrating. Making it require 2 people would pretty much be limiting them to people with mics.
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:31 PM   [Ignore Me] #68
Gonefshn
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


I don't think it's a question of which is better. It's about player satisfaction. The decision they made makes some sense. People who aren't used to PS1 (most people in PS2 will be these people) will expect to be able to truly utilize their certs for vehicles. They will cert tanks because they want to use them not just drive around a gunner. The decision makes sense because of what people will expect and enjoy as a majority.

I, however feel it is a bit lazy to not allow at least a cert that can allow dedicated drivers or at least switching the main and secondary gun control (ala magrider in PS1).

Lot's of people love and cherish that way of playing. I'd say it's definitely more effective because the main turret gunner can focus all his attention into aiming.

Allow both, honestly they have to do this.
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:33 PM   [Ignore Me] #69
LordReaver
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


Originally Posted by Xyntech View Post
I still think that a full on sidegrade cert is the way to go, not just a button that releases the main gun to the gunner.

If it's just a release, then you still have the problem of 2 people being required to do the job of 1 person.

The only way to fix it is if the dedicated driver sidegrade also gives a noticeable boost to the vehicles armor.

The way I would handle it would be to call it a Heavy Battle Tank sidegrade. Nerf the speed slightly, buff up the armor (slightly in back, heavily on the front), and give the gunner control of the main gun. Possibly an even beefier main gun than the regular main gun.

At that point, you could even add a third seat for a second gunner to control an optional additional AA or other secondary turret.

The main design goal would be that a skilled dedicated driver and gunner pair would have 50/50 odds against a skilled driver of a normal MBT who had a second crew member controlling a secondary AV weapon, and 50/50 odds against two separate solo MBT's (depending on how well the solo MBT's manage to flank).

But I can absolutely envision an environment where dedicated gunners are not only viable, but desirable in a lot of situations while still coexisting with solo MBT's who would still be perfectly viable options for players who preferred that style.
That's one way to fix it, but you could accomplish the same thing by just leaving it the way it was in PS1. If someone wants to solo tank it, they can grab a lightning. That's the way I think it should be. This whole discussion just seems to be centered around the concept of soloing everything. Wasn't this supposed to be a team based game?
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:34 PM   [Ignore Me] #70
Gandhi
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


Originally Posted by Aberdash View Post
I'd say when your gunner is trying to shoot a reaver while there is a tank infront of you would be pretty frustrating. Making it require 2 people would pretty much be limiting them to people with mics.
Put your cursor over the tank, press E, it's automatically marked on your gunner's HUD as a priority target. There's usually simple solutions to these problems.
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:36 PM   [Ignore Me] #71
Aberdash
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


Originally Posted by Gandhi View Post
Put your cursor over the tank, press E, it's automatically marked on your gunner's HUD as a priority target. There's usually simple solutions to these problems.
Pretty sure a lot of people playing wont care what you mark since they obviously know better than you.

edit: Also from experience you have the whole "no angle" thing.

Last edited by Aberdash; 2012-07-10 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #72
WorldOfForms
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


The funny thing is, if they do put in the option for dedicated positions, those tank crews are going to wipe the floor with the default config tanks.

I really hope they put this option in, because if they do, I'll be hopping on VOIP with a friend and going tank hunting. It'll be hilarious when the other drivers end up crashing into trees and rocks while we effortlessly weave through them. Taking advantage of abrupt terrain changes will be great.

Man, they really better implement dedicated driver/gunner.
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #73
Gandhi
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


Originally Posted by Aberdash View Post
Pretty sure a lot of people playing wont care what you mark since they obviously know better than you.
Then find some good people to play with or pull a Lightning. You can't design the game assuming everyone is going to act like an idiot, else we'll end up with nothing but TDM on a massive scale. The only way to "idiot proof" a game is to remove all reliance on other people, everyone plays for themselves. There's plenty of those games on the market already.
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:47 PM   [Ignore Me] #74
MrKWalmsley
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


Originally Posted by Aberdash View Post
I'd say when your gunner is trying to shoot a reaver while there is a tank infront of you would be pretty frustrating. Making it require 2 people would pretty much be limiting them to people with mics.
Well, let's transfer this situation to a single seat vehicle. You're sat there, shooting at a reaver. You cannot see the tank because you are not looking in that direction, you only know after it hits you, whereas before with a separate gunner, you could begin backing off to behind some cover to try and avoid the inevitable incoming fire so your gunner has time to realise.

The second you get hit by a tank shell I'm sure the gunner will turn to see the enemy tank just as quickly as you would if you were in the same position, only with control over the vehicle's movement.

Also, there are quick commands. Having three seater tanks in Project Reality did not make such builds limited to people with mics, it just made it slightly less effective. Plus with the spotter button I'm pretty sure the gunner would react immediately to the icon suddenly popping up on screen as the driver spots the enemy tank. If anything you should be arguing that in this situation having a gunner and driver separate makes it easier because it allows for extra field of view when the gunner is firing at angles off the central axis!

Last edited by MrKWalmsley; 2012-07-10 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 2012-07-10, 04:50 PM   [Ignore Me] #75
SgtExo
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Re: Driver/Gunners... NO!


Originally Posted by WorldOfForms View Post
The funny thing is, if they do put in the option for dedicated positions, those tank crews are going to wipe the floor with the default config tanks.

I really hope they put this option in, because if they do, I'll be hopping on VOIP with a friend and going tank hunting. It'll be hilarious when the other drivers end up crashing into trees and rocks while we effortlessly weave through them. Taking advantage of abrupt terrain changes will be great.

Man, they really better implement dedicated driver/gunner.
I don't know with who you play, but i have no problem weaving thru things while shooting ppl at the same time, its true that some ppl wont be able to do both, but i do believe those ppl a just not that good at gaming in general.
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