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View Poll Results: What do you think about the Gun combat so far?
Perfect...Minimal movement because accuracy should be most important. 62 57.94%
Way Too slow...I want to be able to shoot and move very fast..Twitch Gameplay FTW 9 8.41%
Slow...Needs more movement but nothing too fast. 25 23.36%
Slow...Needs to be exactly like Planetside 1. 11 10.28%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-22, 05:14 PM   [Ignore Me] #61
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


Originally Posted by Stardouser View Post
Some people, and devs, think that just because something is new, that it's an evolution. This is not true, especially when we're talking about 4th wall breaking aid from the game such as killcam, 3D spotting, etc.

As for ADS vs hipfire lasers, neither of them is, objectively, the wrong decision. ADS isn't better or worse just because it's new and because way back in the day, the first shooters like Doom used pure twitch gameplay; it's simply a matter of ADS is the popular thing right now and making a Quake-gameplay MMO would be financial suicide.
I think a bunch of you are missing the point....We are talking about movement in game!


First of all it isn't ADS vs hipfire....That isn't the subject.

Why?...Because COD is ADS and you have fast movement..If ttk for COD wasn't low it will be like quake with iron sites (im exaggerating but it will be non stop moving action)...Unlike planetside 2 where you stand and shoot.


Planetside 2 could still have Iron Sights and have more movement.


As for hip fires being financial suicide LMFAO....no dude just no.....tell that to halo and many other games that do that.
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Old 2012-05-22, 05:20 PM   [Ignore Me] #62
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


It is an issue of ADS vs hipfire. Or, let's say this : If CoD allows you to strafe quickly while ADS, then we have to look at that specifically, and I at least don't want that, either, any more than I want hipfire to be fully accurate. When ADS you should be reduced to a slow step in any direction. And if you do want fast movement, it should come with a heavily penalized cone of fire while doing it. Game mechanics should be about more about firing from cover than from a fast strafe - again, in my opinion.

I don't play CoD but if it allows fast movement while ADS then that's an example of how we shouldn't try to mix Quake into this kind of game.

Last edited by Stardouser; 2012-05-22 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 2012-05-22, 05:24 PM   [Ignore Me] #63
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


Originally Posted by Stardouser View Post
It is an issue of ADS vs hipfire. Or, let's say this : If CoD allows you to strafe quickly while ADS, then we have to look at that specifically, and I at least don't want that, either, any more than I want hipfire to be fully accurate. When ADS you should be reduced to a slow step in any direction. And if you do want fast movement, it should come with a heavily penalized cone of fire while doing it. Game mechanics should be about more about firing from cover than from a fast strafe - again, in my opinion.

I don't play CoD but if it allows fast movement while ADS then that's an example of how we shouldn't try to mix Quake into this kind of game.
In Modern Warfare 3, you could get a perk that let you move faster while in ADS which i always used, best perk ever, at least allowed me to stop losing to hip firing noobs from the time it takes to pull the gun to my face, where as now i can keep the gun to face at all times. Made that game much more fun for me. If this game had a cover/lean system, then that would promote using cover, but since using cover is really hard without, you are better strafing the enemy because it lowers their chance of hitting you while you keep your sights on the enemy because he isn't moving. But if there is lots of awesome cover filled areas, like waist high walls where i can crouch and be safe, then stand and still be mostly protected. Then cover will be good.
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Old 2012-05-22, 05:26 PM   [Ignore Me] #64
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


Originally Posted by Stardouser View Post
It is an issue of ADS vs hipfire. Or, let's say this : If CoD allows you to strafe quickly while ADS, then we have to look at that specifically, and I at least don't want that, either, any more than I want hipfire to be fully accurate. When ADS you should be reduced to a slow step in any direction. And if you do want fast movement, it should come with a heavily penalized cone of fire while doing it. Game mechanics should be about more about firing from cover than from a fast strafe - again, in my opinion.

I don't play CoD but if it allows fast movement while ADS then that's an example of how we shouldn't try to mix Quake into this kind of game.
Im not that sure about COD...i think iron sights might slow a person down but is still like 5x faster than Planetside 2...in planetside 2 they stand shooting at eachother.

I don't see whats the probelm with moving fast with iron sights...and I don't see why u compare it to quake...Obviously if SOE where to put more movement it wouldn't be that fast.


The way I see it faster movement with iron sights wouldn't break the game....and hip fire will still be very usefull in close combats since using iron sights when somebody is 4 feet away sucks since the person can just run around you.
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Old 2012-05-22, 05:27 PM   [Ignore Me] #65
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


Originally Posted by Toppopia View Post
But if there is lots of awesome cover filled areas, like waist high walls where i can crouch and be safe, then stand and still be mostly protected. Then cover will be good.
There better be, due to the decision to not have prone!

Originally Posted by Dreamcast View Post
Im not that sure about COD...i think iron sights might slow a person down but is still like 5x faster than Planetside 2...in planetside 2 they stand shooting at eachother.

I don't see whats the probelm with moving fast with iron sights...and I don't see why u compare it to quake...Obviously if SOE where to put more movement it wouldn't be that fast.


The way I see it faster movement with iron sights wouldn't break the game....and hip fire will still be very usefull in close combats since using iron sights when somebody is 4 feet away sucks since the person can just run around you.
Thus far in PS2 it's been alpha testers, too small to bother playing tactically. I think the idea in all out combat will be : Squad moves and takes cover on the way to the target, 5 move while 5 suppress fire, then they move up, rinse and repeat.

Hipfire or fast moving ADS would result in no need for that and all 10 would just run at the base strafing on the way lol...

Last edited by Stardouser; 2012-05-22 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 2012-05-22, 05:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #66
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


You should have to aim down sight to properly kill someone from a distance. Running and either hip firing or ADS'ing and firing should be used only to suppress the enemy while you move to cover. This is assuming there is some sort of suppression system (not BF3). Something that makes you think "oh s**t, i should hide, there's bullets flying at my face".

Re-birthing is great but I bet bullets still hurt!

Just my two cents.

Quick edit: ADS should still put the bullets where the sight is pointing at ALL times. But when moving the gun itself should bounce about making accurate fire difficult.

Last edited by DayOne; 2012-05-22 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 2012-05-22, 05:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #67
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


Originally Posted by DayOne View Post
You should have to aim down sight to properly kill someone from a distance. Running and either hip firing or ADS'ing and firing should be used only to suppress the enemy while you move to cover. This is assuming there is some sort of suppression system (not BF3). Something that makes you think "oh s**t, i should hide, there's bullets flying at my face".

Re-birthing is great but I bet bullets still hurt!

Just my two cents.
I do hope there is a suppressing system, like really inaccurate fire when suppressed, then i will finally have another reason to use a LMG type weapon.
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Old 2012-05-22, 05:56 PM   [Ignore Me] #68
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


Originally Posted by DayOne View Post
Quick edit: ADS should still put the bullets where the sight is pointing at ALL times. But when moving the gun itself should bounce about making accurate fire difficult.
Honestly, perfect cone of fire aka random deviation is when if moving/not ADS, but cut to zero when stopped and ADS. But honestly? The only reason it's random is because the animation of the gun swaying from your movement doesn't match the bullet pattern. If the animation matched so that you could see, due to your movement, that the gun is swaying, people wouldn't complain about it being random even though it's the same result!
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Old 2012-05-22, 06:28 PM   [Ignore Me] #69
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


Making a game of pS2's style without including the option of ADS would probably be bad. Maybe not suicide, but why leave out a popular feature that a lot of your fan base will expect?

There is a big difference between ADS being mandatory for reliably hitting someone at 30m and ADS being mandatory for reliably hitting someone at 100m+. They can strike a nice middle ground, where PS1 players who want to hip fire can do so most of the time, and players who obsessively ADS can do so at 20m if they for some reason want to.

Both can be well accommodated without disenfranchising anyone in the process.
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Old 2012-05-22, 06:49 PM   [Ignore Me] #70
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


Originally Posted by Stardouser View Post
Honestly, perfect cone of fire aka random deviation is when if moving/not ADS, but cut to zero when stopped and ADS. But honestly? The only reason it's random is because the animation of the gun swaying from your movement doesn't match the bullet pattern. If the animation matched so that you could see, due to your movement, that the gun is swaying, people wouldn't complain about it being random even though it's the same result!
Yes. It's the fact you have a rough idea of where the bullet will actually end up that would be good!

Originally Posted by Toppopia View Post
I do hope there is a suppressing system, like really inaccurate fire when suppressed, then i will finally have another reason to use a LMG type weapon.
I said NOT like BF3. Just a visual (blur) and sound (loud) that makes you, as a player, panic rather than pretending that you are by making you inaccurate.

Even a hip fire CoF increase and a lot more sway on you gun as you ADS would be okay. It causes inaccuracy but not in a BS way.

Also cool down on suppression effects should be very short so you would need sustained fire to keep someone under suppression.
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Old 2012-05-22, 06:53 PM   [Ignore Me] #71
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


Originally Posted by DayOne View Post
Yes. It's the fact you have a rough idea of where the bullet will actually end up that would be good!



I said NOT like BF3. Just a visual (blur) and sound (loud) that makes you, as a player, panic rather than pretending that you are by making you inaccurate.

Even a hip fire CoF increase and a lot more sway on you gun as you ADS would be okay. It causes inaccuracy but not in a BS way.

Also cool down on suppression effects should be very short so you would need sustained fire to keep someone under suppression.
This. NO BF3 suppression, that would be apocalyptic. If we MUST have a suppression mechanic, the blur should be extremely light, and the workhorse portion of the blur mechanic should be enhanced sound of bullets whizzing by, letting you know just how close they are.

Note that one of the reason(in my opinion) that BF3 uses the suppression that it does instead of sound is because the ambient sound the game uses for immersion purposes drowns out everything else. I also believe that to be the reason for the hated audio spotting, in BF2 you can judge shot direction by sound but ambient so-called "immersive" sound in BF3 drowns it out to where you can't.
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Old 2012-05-22, 07:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #72
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


If it's just sound it's not going to suppress anyone. It's just good sound effects.
And that's fine by me.

If you want people to care about the sound of bullets coming close gunfire has to be deadly enough that you're actually worried about a bullet hitting your exposed dome.

I don't know how you've broken directional sound in BF3, but I can hear where suppressed shooters are shooting from, regular guns are no issue.
And that's the point of the "sound spot" - to give silencers a more powerful ability.

As far as cone of fire...I've always found it to suck. I'd prefer a deviation that stays constant and quasi-random bumping. DoD:S did with some COF expansion. Whatever they do, it looks stupid when bullets come out of a barrel at odd angles.
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Last edited by Rbstr; 2012-05-22 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 2012-05-22, 07:34 PM   [Ignore Me] #73
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


I disagree, sound is suppressive, especially if they are more intense the closer they are to you.

With that said, if that IS why they have audio spotting it's bad; audio spotting is an extreme casualization. People don't even have to spot enemies in that case. Creating that casualization just to give value to suppressors is wrong. Audio spotting should have not been created and suppressors would be just to cut the sound.

And, I'm actually talking about snipers. BF2 it was quite easy to tell sniper shot direction. It's not so in BF3.
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Old 2012-05-22, 07:37 PM   [Ignore Me] #74
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


I personally really like the system from MAG. You get a white bar up on your reticule like direction of damage but it's for when an enemy is firing.

Also it comes up yellow if those bullets are coming towards you.
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Old 2012-05-22, 08:24 PM   [Ignore Me] #75
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Re: Gun Combat= No movement, very stationary when shooting


Originally Posted by DayOne View Post
Yes. It's the fact you have a rough idea of where the bullet will actually end up that would be good!



I said NOT like BF3. Just a visual (blur) and sound (loud) that makes you, as a player, panic rather than pretending that you are by making you inaccurate.

Even a hip fire CoF increase and a lot more sway on you gun as you ADS would be okay. It causes inaccuracy but not in a BS way.

Also cool down on suppression effects should be very short so you would need sustained fire to keep someone under suppression.
I would like that, but... some people don't understand the concept of "Oh god, i am being shot, must hide and stay there till they stop shooting."

I have shot continuously at people before, but they still come out of cover while i am shooting and kill me, because they moved 1 metre away from my bullets and had no negative effect from me firing at him. I want a system that makes suppressing possible, i would like your way if it worked, but from what i have experienced, even in BF3, i am suppressing a target and he can still shoot me or doesn't react like he should. So if people reacted properly to the situation then i wouldn't want to add weird effects, but since they don't, we have to force them to react by giving them bad effects.
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