Trying to picture actual tank tactics - Page 4

SgtExo · 2012-07-19, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by WorldOfForms

That's basically what I was describing. So you punch through the line with your tanks, and then you have enemies behind you. They shoot your rear, you die.

With tanks being as vulnerable as they are, the enemy doesn't even have to shoot your rear. How are you going to punch through a line when enemy AV can kill you almost instantly?

Did you play PS1? A Vanguard took forty AV shots to kill, and even then in a heated battle they could die almost instantly because of so much lead flying through the air. Tanks that take 6-7 shots will be obliterated before they get anywhere near the line to punch through.

I don't think anyone is really considering what will happen when the armies are scaled up. Tanks are going to get hosed immediately out in the open unless the devs increase their armor dramatically.

I have never played PS1, but the outfit that would move in an opening while leaving its rear exposed like that deserve to die.

What I was saying is not for the whole force to move in, that would leave the flanks and rear exposed like you stated, but only the strike force would move in leaving at least the other half of the force to hold the line and protect the strike forces vulnerable flanks. The purpose of a Blitzkrieg is to leave the enemy forces lost and confused with overwhelming forces first striking the weak points in the line first, then securing (meaning not leaving yourself vulnerable) the objectives.

That would be the way a highly skilled and practiced outfit would do it. It would start with infantry making contact, then they would report where the best place to break thru would be. Then the tanks, libs would start shelling the target, followed by ES planes taking out specific targets that holding the line. This would be followed when the line breaks by the Lightnings and ATVs that push into the enemy lines and covering the sunderers that are bringing in all the infantry that will take the base. You still need infantry and tanks to stay outside and keep the base clear of enemy tanks and air cover to protect the platoon that is securing the objective.

I personally cant wait to see tactics like this happen.

Figment · 2012-07-19, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by WorldOfForms

I don't see how a blitzkrieg could work. Here's what I see: you smash through the front line, and then your weak rear armor is now exposed to the line you just smashed through, assuming you didn't kill everything in that front line.

So it never worked for the Germans?

The point of Blitzkrieg is that your arse is protected by the infantry and other units pushing through behind you, plus the whole point of turning your enemy around is to make them easy targets and fire at THEIR rears.

But let's say you did kill everything. Now what? You're at close range with enemies at the new the front line. You'll be slaughtered unless you retreat. But if you retreat... there's that exposed rear again.

That might just be your goal: move the frontline. Think you should take a close look at Blitzkrieg tactics though. It's specifically designed for tanks.

That's why I'm saying that the PS1 tank driving, where you approach the front line, take shots on the move, and then circle back toward your own troops won't work. The moment you circle back, you're hosed, unless you can perfectly position yourself to always be near cover the moment you turn around.

People keep bringing up mobile tactics from PS1, but I'm just not seeing how it's viable. Tanks in PS2 die super fast, even when shot in the front, let alone the rear.

I don't see how we're going to do anything other than: hug cover, creep forward, take potshots, reverse back behind cover.

By playing very aggressive, you won't be showing your rear. But your allies must help in the push. Otherwise you're doomed.

Tanks take 6-7 shots from AV or other tanks, on their front armor right now, correct? Picture a battlefield of hundreds of troops. All it will take is 6-7 units to focus fire on you and you will die literally instantly.

Which means you have to move in groups and sprint from cover to cover. Safety in the herd is a very old nature tactic.

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-19, 05:39 PM

Boils down to careful placement, and as you suggested, in the real world, tanks tend to choose their positions carefully and fire from hull-down. It all depends on circumstances, but basically, you're always ahead to have some kind of plan and situational awareness rather than just charging blindly at your target.

And team work. Lots of team work. Lone wolves die fast.

SgtMAD · 2012-07-19, 06:14 PM

maybe three posts in thread that even begin to understand the problem of tank fight in PS2

going in reverse isn't going to work out because you won't be able to see what is behind you,most tanks are going to be running around with only a driver/gunner solo so a second set of eyes like in PS1 aren't going to be around.
if you want to get a good idea of how that is going to work, go grab a lightning in PS1 and attack other tanks.

you can grab a second gunner for AA but from what i read here on PSU,everyone says they are going to just grab another tank instead of that,

using lightnings in PS2 for an AA platform is comical,the idea of all these lightning drivers trying to track air targets above them with the crosshairs while trying to move around to avoid the other aircraft going after him is going to lead to huge piles of dead armor.

the reason the SkyGuard works is the driver,he keeps that buggy moving around as fast as it can go while the gunner fires at the aircraft,if you make that gunner drive then that veh is a deathtrap

a combined column will get shredded by by an air group,all the air has to do is target the AA first and the rest of the tanks are rolling XP for the surviving air to clean up.

you are going to see so much aircraft that armor is going to have a tough time surviving long enough to be effective,can you imagine a tank column getting jumped in one of those tight canyons and running into each other trying to fight and run,then the libs fly over and start using that 150mm to kill armor.

you cannot compare the tanks in PS1 to the armor we are going to see(as of today,LOL)in PS2.the only thing they have in common is the names of their predecessors(sp)in the original

Landtank · 2012-07-19, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by HtSgtMAD

maybe three posts in thread that even begin to understand the problem of tank fight in PS2

going in reverse isn't going to work out because you won't be able to see what is behind you,most tanks are going to be running around with only a driver/gunner solo so a second set of eyes like in PS1 aren't going to be around.
if you want to get a good idea of how that is going to work, go grab a lightning in PS1 and attack other tanks.

you can grab a second gunner for AA but from what i read here on PSU,everyone says they are going to just grab another tank instead of that,

using lightnings in PS2 for an AA platform is comical,the idea of all these lightning drivers trying to track air targets above them with the crosshairs while trying to move around to avoid the other aircraft going after him is going to lead to huge piles of dead armor.

the reason the SkyGuard works is the driver,he keeps that buggy moving around as fast as it can go while the gunner fires at the aircraft,if you make that gunner drive then that veh is a deathtrap

a combined column will get shredded by by an air group,all the air has to do is target the AA first and the rest of the tanks are rolling XP for the surviving air to clean up.

you are going to see so much aircraft that armor is going to have a tough time surviving long enough to be effective,can you imagine a tank column getting jumped in one of those tight canyons and running into each other trying to fight and run,then the libs fly over and start using that 150mm to kill armor.

you cannot compare the tanks in PS1 to the armor we are going to see(as of today,LOL)in PS2.the only thing they have in common is the names of their predecessors(sp)in the original

If you see a lot of Air Cav, then you will see even more Anti Air.

I'm sure you will be able to right click and look around without moving the turret, that only makes sense to me.

If we can't look backwards while reversing with our turret facing forwards, well then it encourages situational awareness! Real tank crews do it somehow, I'm sure we could figure it out in a video game.

Figment · 2012-07-19, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by HtSgtMAD

stuffs

I would imagine most single crew tank collums would be half AA Lightnings, half MBTs with AA secondary.

It's going to be harder to kill tanks with aircav than in PS1, aside from the Lib which currently seems to only need to breathe in the direction of a tank to kill it.

StumpyTheOzzie · 2012-07-19, 07:48 PM

This whole Blitzkreig thing is all very well and good from a theoretical standpoint but if your goal is to take a tower or something, wouldn't you just grab a lot of infantry and stick them in a couple of gals?

Infantry are required to take the objective. Tanks can't fit inside very easily.

If you have WW2 style front lines of thousands of troopers in trenches then I think a column of armour will punch a nice neat hole through that and will be able to (with a few losses) drive along to whatever the objective is.

If the objective is slaughter, I think Air > Tanks. They have similar firepower moving at faster speeds (covering larger arcs of fire) are not troubled by terrain obstacles and "bang for buck" seem very cheap.

So maybe tanks ARE useless after all?

WorldOfForms · 2012-07-19, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

So it never worked for the Germans?

The point of Blitzkrieg is that your arse is protected by the infantry and other units pushing through behind you, plus the whole point of turning your enemy around is to make them easy targets and fire at THEIR rears.

That might just be your goal: move the frontline. Think you should take a close look at Blitzkrieg tactics though. It's specifically designed for tanks.

By playing very aggressive, you won't be showing your rear. But your allies must help in the push. Otherwise you're doomed.

Which means you have to move in groups and sprint from cover to cover. Safety in the herd is a very old nature tactic.

The part I'm not seeing is how some units following behind you is going to protect you from getting shot in the rear. Units aren't some giant wall that blocks shots to your rear. A Lancer can easily pinpoint a tank's rear unless the ENTIRE rear is behind cover.

And how are tanks supposed to sprint from cover to cover in the larger open spaces that are supposed to be "designed for tank battles"?

I still don't see an answer to this problem: you advance in your tank with your front facing the enemy. You start taking AV fire. You have maybe 2-3 seconds before you explode. What do you do? Unless cover is RIGHT next to you, you have to retreat and evade, exposing your rear. And you're not evading anything with lock-on AV trained on you.

How do you plan to survive if you're not next to cover ALL THE TIME? How do you deal with infantry on base walls? In PS1 the only thing a tank could do when AV infantry fired upon them from an elevated position was to retreat. How are you going to retreat when that exposes your rear?

Everyone keeps saying groups and teamwork will somehow solve this problem, but when it boils down to it, each tank driver will have to deal with the scenarios I'm describing regardless of how many people are coordinating with them. So what if 20 friendly tanks are near you? What happens when a handful of AV infantry start shooting you from a walltop?

Tatwi · 2012-07-19, 08:08 PM

To give you an idea...

The other weekend in PS1 I was out in the field in a Lightning, firing at BFR who was up on a ridge while I strafed through the valley below. I was hitting him with every shot, but he was busy shooting at someone else, until I guess I got too pesky and he laid into me. I quickly determined that the only way I could retreat was to charge him and then bolt left down the edge of the valley wall below him. Why? Because the angle was too steep for him to fire down at me! It worked. I was able to get out his line of fire, retreat around the corner, repair, and get back on the field with the rest of our armor. We chased those BFRs for quite a while, taking out one or two of them with the use of baiting and flanking. I finally bit the dust when I went to flank one of them and ended up parked beside yet another one of their BFRs...oops lol...

Tactics for vehicles are just as deep as tactics for anything else.

SixShooter · 2012-07-19, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by WorldOfForms

The part I'm not seeing is how some units following behind you is going to protect you from getting shot in the rear. Units aren't some giant wall that blocks shots to your rear. A Lancer can easily pinpoint a tank's rear unless the ENTIRE rear is behind cover.

And how are tanks supposed to sprint from cover to cover in the larger open spaces that are supposed to be "designed for tank battles"?

I still don't see an answer to this problem: you advance in your tank with your front facing the enemy. You start taking AV fire. You have maybe 2-3 seconds before you explode. What do you do? Unless cover is RIGHT next to you, you have to retreat and evade, exposing your rear. And you're not evading anything with lock-on AV trained on you.

How do you plan to survive if you're not next to cover ALL THE TIME? How do you deal with infantry on base walls? In PS1 the only thing a tank could do when AV infantry fired upon them from an elevated position was to retreat. How are you going to retreat when that exposes your rear?

Everyone keeps saying groups and teamwork will somehow solve this problem, but when it boils down to it, each tank driver will have to deal with the scenarios I'm describing regardless of how many people are coordinating with them. So what if 20 friendly tanks are near you? What happens when a handful of AV infantry start shooting you from a walltop?

Basically this thread is starting to boil down to this:
OMG!!! TANKS WILL DIE NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO AND THERE IS NO TACTIC TO KEEP YOU FROM GETTING KILLED WHEN YOU WANT TO RUN AWAY FROM A FIGHT!!!!!!!!!
Realistically, there is no way to protect your weak spots 100%. You are going to have to expose your ass from time to time in a tank battle - deal with it. Of course you're going to die but with good teamwork you should die a lot less.

Holy shit! What if a bunch of AV guys start shooting from rooftops??? -- Shoot back dude, that's what the guns are for

Unforgiven · 2012-07-19, 08:41 PM

as a tanker in the Corps, i say this...

nobody in this game will even have the slightest clue how to use tanks, perform manuvers to close with the enemy in a tank, or be able to effectively use any tank skills outside of videogames to locate and destroy your enemy by fire with a "effective tank unit"

having said that, i cant wait to see what people come up with in the game, what works, and what doesn't work. im sure REAL tank tactics wont do squat in the game, because in RL we dont have afghani soldiers with jump packs, or a tank that hovers.

not to mention the reload times are just... awful. if it takes your crew more than 5 seconds between rounds, your dead. end of story.

WorldOfForms · 2012-07-19, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Rivenshield

*wat*

Lancer damage: 125 per shot

Vanguard Armor: 4500

Shots to kill: 36

So I exaggerated by a whopping 4 shots.

And this is the absolute BEST DPS AV had, as the Striker had slightly less DPS and the Phoenix was waaaaaaay behind this.

Zar · 2012-07-19, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

The rear isn't any more vulnerable then the front. The only real difference is you can't return fire, and if retreat is being considered, returning fire isn't really going to do you any good anyway. Better to focus on maneuvering and forcing your opponent to constantly adjust his aim on the fly while driving through obstacle fields.

With the way PS2 is doing things, the most common tactics for tanks will be stationary artillery points, few shots will be done on the move and that is killing one of the biggest advantages (and the core reason behind the invention) of tanks. Mobile warfare isn't going to be very mobile, unless you are good at what you do.

This means that tanks will be more vulnerable to infantry, which is what they attempted to do with BFRs. The DEVs are aiming for a full circle of rock-paper-scissors but it will inevitably be a triangle with Air Cav being on top (which, coincidentally, is exactly like RL and exactly the way things should be anyway).

As for in-game tactics, you can plot and plan but until we get in the game, there's no real point.

as of right now >.< tanks take more dmg from the rear =x this in beta builds as of now soooo >.>.

SgtExo · 2012-07-19, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by WorldOfForms

The part I'm not seeing is how some units following behind you is going to protect you from getting shot in the rear. Units aren't some giant wall that blocks shots to your rear. A Lancer can easily pinpoint a tank's rear unless the ENTIRE rear is behind cover.

And how are tanks supposed to sprint from cover to cover in the larger open spaces that are supposed to be "designed for tank battles"?

I still don't see an answer to this problem: you advance in your tank with your front facing the enemy. You start taking AV fire. You have maybe 2-3 seconds before you explode. What do you do? Unless cover is RIGHT next to you, you have to retreat and evade, exposing your rear. And you're not evading anything with lock-on AV trained on you.

How do you plan to survive if you're not next to cover ALL THE TIME? How do you deal with infantry on base walls? In PS1 the only thing a tank could do when AV infantry fired upon them from an elevated position was to retreat. How are you going to retreat when that exposes your rear?

Everyone keeps saying groups and teamwork will somehow solve this problem, but when it boils down to it, each tank driver will have to deal with the scenarios I'm describing regardless of how many people are coordinating with them. So what if 20 friendly tanks are near you? What happens when a handful of AV infantry start shooting you from a walltop?

1) It doesn't really matter if 1 or 2 hits come when you are pushing in, that is expected, that is why you have enough forces to deal with loses. Also the infantry that is guarding your rear should be able to deal with any AV that exposes himself enough to get any good shots in.

2) Open areas are good for tanks because they can use their range and speed to their advantage, so they are not supposed to sprint from cover to cover. In an open plain infantry wont have anywhere to hide, planes will be seen from far away and can be dealt with if equipped appropriately. What tanks can use for cover in open areas the rolling hills and dried river beds that lets tanks sneak up and flank enemy positions. So what seems like an empty plain to someone, could easily be teaming with opposing armor.

3) The reason you wont die instantly is that a good blitzkrieg attacks the weak portion of the line with overwhelming forces. This means that while you might get hit a couple of times, it is the other side that should be vaporized off the face of the planet. So you don't attack the place where there is 20 AV weapons just waiting for you. You maneuver around that position and attack its weak flank or from a direction that is not anticipated.

4) Infantry on walls are not that dangerous, unless you get within their area of influence. Because they are in a fixed position, they can be easily outmaneuvered (which is at the core of a good blitzkrieg). If you have to take that position, you can start by suppressing them with long range weapons (tank fire, snipers), then move in infantry closer by moving under cover (using topography, smoke, distractions), then they can assault the wall, or just keep them pinned down while the rest of the team takes the objectives.

If that's not clear enough for you, then I don't know what will satisfy you!

WorldOfForms · 2012-07-19, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by SixShooter

Basically this thread is starting to boil down to this:
OMG!!! TANKS WILL DIE NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO AND THERE IS NO TACTIC TO KEEP YOU FROM GETTING KILLED WHEN YOU WANT TO RUN AWAY FROM A FIGHT!!!!!!!!!
Realistically, there is no way to protect your weak spots 100%. You are going to have to expose your ass from time to time in a tank battle - deal with it. Of course you're going to die but with good teamwork you should die a lot less.

Holy shit! What if a bunch of AV guys start shooting from rooftops??? -- Shoot back dude, that's what the guns are for

I considered stating the obvious in a previous post, but decided it wasn't necessary. Alas, it is.

Infantry on elevated positions are essentially immune to tank fire. Splash damage can't hit them, so your only hope is to get a lucky shot on a dumb infantry that pokes his head out for too long. It's whack a mole.

I've driven every tank in PS1 extensively. Even with a survivability of taking 36 shots from AV, a vanguard would evaporate if you strayed too close to enemy troops.

Do we not see the problem, then, if tanks die in 6-7 shots? And even fewer if hit from the rear?

Tanks have become less survivable, but infantry haven't (instagib in both scenarios). Yet everyone thinks tanks will be able to use similar tactics to PS1.

I'm not trying to say "Tanks will blow up no matter what you do OMG!" I'm saying, what CAN we do to not blow up instantly? Other than creeping out from cover, there must be something, but the tactics I've heard mentioned so far don't sound remotely realistic and seem to completely ignore how paper thin tanks are now.