Drivers Main Weapon

[Raka Maru]

Originally Posted by BorisBlade

Now if they do give the option to let us give the pilot's gun to a second gunner on the other tanks/vehicles, i would be happy. Sadly if its only available on the tr/nc it would def keep me from playin vs.

This is what we need to fix this. Gun assignment option screen. Driver gets to select gun he controls.
1) none
2) main
3) secondary

The passenger/gunner will get choice like lightning interface when the driver selects none.

[FIREk]

Originally Posted by BorisBlade

Besides, it means the magrider would have to be completely redesigned. Dont see that happening.

Give the driver a weak-ass gun like PS1's PPA, then redesign the turret to incorporate both a primary and secondary gun. Both turret-mounted guns would be used by the gunner (he would toggle between them). The turret wouldn't have a coax gun as its equivalent would be used by the driver. Problem kinda solved.

Tracked tanks could give the gunners control of both weapons as well, or the secondaries could be used by the driver. I dearly hope that these will get nerfed as soon as they add buggies to do proper AA.

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by Raka Maru

This is what we need to fix this. Gun assignment option screen. Driver gets to select gun he controls.
1) none
2) main
3) secondary

The passenger/gunner will get choice like lightning interface when the driver selects none.

Except that the new Magrider throws a monkey wrench into the idea.

I still say that the idea of a modification that simultaneously removes the main gun, boosts the tanks armor and gives the gunner an extra powerful turret would be the most viable alternative that could still be used with the current system.

It would work for all 3 ES tanks, including the new Magrider. It would prevent tanks from acting as one man AA tanks (if that's something that the devs wish to avoid). It would reward dedicated driver/gunner combos by giving them extra protection, while allowing them to do almost as much AV damage as tanks sporting driver guns + AV gunner turrets.

They would be less versatile than other types of tanks, but would be the undisputed champion of tank vs tank combat.

All that the devs would have to do:

Add a good looking visual to replace the missing main gun

Add a new, extra large gunner turret

Possibly add a visual representation of the tanks extra armor

Plus the usual tweaking around of stats and balance testing.

Their new system would remain intact and still be viable options on the battlefield, while old school PS1 tank drivers and gunners would get to have their more familiar system available, and also still viable.

[Raka Maru]

Xyntech, I didn't have a solution for the mag, but yours looks good, I like.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Xyntech

Except that the new Magrider throws a monkey wrench into the idea.

I still say that the idea of a modification that simultaneously removes the main gun, boosts the tanks armor and gives the gunner an extra powerful turret would be the most viable alternative that could still be used with the current system.

It would work for all 3 ES tanks, including the new Magrider. It would prevent tanks from acting as one man AA tanks (if that's something that the devs wish to avoid). It would reward dedicated driver/gunner combos by giving them extra protection, while allowing them to do almost as much AV damage as tanks sporting driver guns + AV gunner turrets.

They would be less versatile than other types of tanks, but would be the undisputed champion of tank vs tank combat.

All that the devs would have to do:

Add a good looking visual to replace the missing main gun

Add a new, extra large gunner turret

Possibly add a visual representation of the tanks extra armor

Plus the usual tweaking around of stats and balance testing.

Their new system would remain intact and still be viable options on the battlefield, while old school PS1 tank drivers and gunners would get to have their more familiar system available, and also still viable.

Thats viable. Though it would have to be less than double the damage, since one person dedicated to driving and the other to gunning is inherently easier.

[Azren]

Originally Posted by LZachariah

I'm surprised that people are still confused about this issue. Higby said, multiple times, without any ambiguity, that the pilot of each vehicle will always have use of the vehicle's primary weapon, and the reason for this is: The pilot is the one who's been buying certifications for the vehicle. Since they are the one who's gone to all the trouble spending experience and resources to give their Magrider +mobility, +speed, and +armor (or whatever), they receive the benefit of being in control of the primary weapon of the vehicle. Additional passengers may be given secondary weapons.

~Zachariah

That reasoning is BS. It is the player who decides what to spend time on, if he/she decides to spend time to upgrade the gunner's weapon, it is his choice to do so. The vehilce he drives will be more effective that way, so it will be a positive thing for the driver.

There is only one reasoning for this that is actually valid; they want to pull in players from BF series who are used to this kind of driving sheme (who by the way are also used to solo play and don't give a damn about teamplay).

[Blackwolf]

Originally Posted by LZachariah

I'm surprised that people are still confused about this issue. Higby said, multiple times, without any ambiguity, that the pilot of each vehicle will always have use of the vehicle's primary weapon, and the reason for this is: The pilot is the one who's been buying certifications for the vehicle. Since they are the one who's gone to all the trouble spending experience and resources to give their Magrider +mobility, +speed, and +armor (or whatever), they receive the benefit of being in control of the primary weapon of the vehicle. Additional passengers may be given secondary weapons.

~Zachariah

Pretty bad reason if you ask me. Again this kills team work and promotes solo play styles. And besides, maybe some of us WANT to go through all that "trouble" and find a gunner as our partner and let them gun while we drive? Seriously if your playing the game, your getting the experience and certs anyway. If you want to spend them to purchase a tank so that you can drive it, then do so. Higby is basically suggesting that people are being forced at gun point against their will to pilot tanks. Never had a problem finding people with tank certs in PS1, which tells me the system wasn't broken.

I think the secondary gun would be just fine for the tank drivers, a forward mounted 180 degree arcing weapon (strait mounted for the Magrider). As long as the driver can have his fun gunning then why does he need the big cannon?

[CutterJohn]

Stop confusing 'secondary turret' with 'weak'. Its not. It will be very beneficial for a tank to have a gunner.

[Talek Krell]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Stop confusing 'secondary turret' with 'weak'. Its not. It will be very beneficial for a tank to have a gunner.

But will it be more beneficial than having a second tank? And if so, then why bother calling it a "secondary" turret when it's obviously the most powerful weapon on the vehicle?

[daish k]

When the game is in beta, we really just need to get a group of people to try fighting 1 man tanks vs 2 man tanks. See which side does best, and also see what the rest of the beta playerbase does normally.

Maybe 1/2 the tanks with 2 people in them is better, but most people will still solo tank because it is good enough. I hope that if everyone taking their own tank is better than teamwork that it will not make it out of beta that way.

[Blackwolf]

Originally Posted by daish k

When the game is in beta, we really just need to get a group of people to try fighting 1 man tanks vs 2 man tanks. See which side does best, and also see what the rest of the beta playerbase does normally.

Maybe 1/2 the tanks with 2 people in them is better, but most people will still solo tank because it is good enough. I hope that if everyone taking their own tank is better than teamwork that it will not make it out of beta that way.

It's pretty much mathematically impossible for 1 tank with 2 people to out perform 2 tanks. Even if the secondary gun was as powerful as the primary gun, even if the 2 man tank had both AV guns against the 2 one man tanks with AV guns.

The reason is because of the level of damage needed to take out the two tanks compared to the level of damage needed to take out the one. 2 tanks, double the damage, double the armor. And if that secondary gun is even remotely less potent then the primary cannon, well the 2 man tank probably won't even take out one of the opposing tanks before dieing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a two man tank is useless and pointless, however in a tank on tank battle, with only 1 type of target to contend with, there's not point in two people jumping into the same vehicle. This point by itself makes it very likely that this kind of design will turn the game into tankside.

No matter how you slice it, no matter how you argue for it, no matter how you spin it. On paper this is a bad idea. But I guess we'll see.

[sylphaen]

Originally Posted by Xyntech

I still say that the idea of a modification that simultaneously removes the main gun, boosts the tanks armor and gives the gunner an extra powerful turret would be the most viable alternative that could still be used with the current system.
[...]
Their new system would remain intact and still be viable options on the battlefield, while old school PS1 tank drivers and gunners would get to have their more familiar system available, and also still viable.

That's quite an elegant solution... Good idea !
+1

If the driver can also get interesting mechanics (radar/countermeasure/speed boost/redirecting armor/etc...) when losing its gun, it would be even greater. It would also justify a specialization in vehicles for the guy with the certs.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

It's pretty much mathematically impossible for 1 tank with 2 people to out perform 2 tanks. Even if the secondary gun was as powerful as the primary gun, even if the 2 man tank had both AV guns against the 2 one man tanks with AV guns.

.....

No matter how you slice it, no matter how you argue for it, no matter how you spin it. On paper this is a bad idea. But I guess we'll see.

Your math doesn't account for several things.

-Ease of operation. The gunner can focus solely on gunning. Assuming he has an AV gun, he will easily be more effective at putting out damage than a driver who has to split his concentration between two activities. The PPC on the magrider would improve dps by ~50%. Rarely gets used.

-Other threats on the battlefield. The vehicles are not in a vacuum. 2 tanks with no gunner = dead meat to any air that happens by.

-Cost. Getting two tanks will be more expensive than 1.

-And frankly, they could do something as simple as up the hitpoints when you add one of the turrets, or perhaps there is an active defense that the gunner can control.

[Xyntech]

I don't think solo tanks being overpowered and turning it into tankside will be the problem. The only problem I foresee is having 2 man tanks, of any kind, be rare at best, used only occasionally for AA support and nothing more.

Beta will tell though. No sense griping over it since the Magriders design clearly indicates that it won't change.

Honestly, if they wanted to, it wouldn't be that hard to just make the gunners turrets be way more powerful than the drivers "main" gun. They could still keep the driver guns far more effective than PS1's Magrider PPA.

If the Vanguards 150mm can do 500 damage per shot, give an AV gunner turret 1000 damage per shot. Make it be laser guided AV missiles. Make the missiles way more effective against vehicles and terrible against infantry, while the 150mm can do some decent AI and AV damage.

There are so many ways that they can fix this if it ends up being fubar, which it still may not be.

I still think that having a classic, PS1 style variant with a dedicated driver/gunner would be great, although it would be better to have it balanced against 2 man tanks instead of solo tanks. The solo tank vs two man tank would really need it's own balancing outside of it.

[dsi]

This is obviously a bad decision to anyone who has played Planetside vs Any game with 1 player tanking.

It takes a huge part of teamwork for many people and shoves it down the toilet.