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Old 2014-02-01, 02:57 PM   [Ignore Me] #1
HereticusXZ
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No Auraxis for Tanks!


Tanks have absolutely no benefit at all with the new vehicle spawning mechanic.


Let me either be the first or loudest to say that the new vehicle spawning mechanic without a doubt is a fun experience and a convenient tool... But with that said it has brought a imbalance to Planetside 2. Tanks have no use whatsoever anymore.

Allow me to explain... A Galaxy pilot can fly at the flight ceiling and either hover still, Vulture Orbit, or Strafe-drop players allowing it's squad to halo-drop with pinpoint accuracy right ontop of a Objective, ignoring walls and field battles. It's only significant threat at such altitude is other aircraft, It might be tagged by a occasional Skyguard but Aircraft can easily drift left or right and use natural terrain to block the ground based AA line-of-sight.


Now my point is what roles do Tanks serve with this new mechanic?

There's exceptions to the rule but largely the Tanks primary role was to hard-counter enemy armor, Destroy the ever important Sunderer AMS, and to protect your own Sunderer while providing Overwatch to the Infantry assault. All of this can be done cheaper, faster, and better by Infantry or Aircraft.


Outside of Indar where base-design still allows Tanks to impact the fight, the new Esamire base designs with massive black walls completely denying all tanks any participation and I assume the new Amerish & Hossin base designs likewise will strictly keep Tanks to field battles while the majority drop via Galaxy straight into these ever more constant Infantry Only fights.


Adding to my frustration is the fact that I come from a competitive Outfit... Do tanks serve in any capacity in the Competitive scene where speed in the form of Re-Deploys and Infantry objectives are valued higher then spawning Tanks?


My outlook on armored combat is very bleak, grim, and taken to the extreme... of course there will be exceptions to the rule in which the defensive air-net will be to thick and a Sunderer might be used, assuming SL/PL chooses to continue a attack on this well-defended position or choose to hit the enemy somewhere else? If they do commit to the attack then my beloved Tank might see use. But on average beyond pulling a Tank for the warm and fuzzy feeling of driving a tank... There's no point to spawn a tank.


Planetside 2 is suppose to be a combined arms game. The growing fascination with Infantry only facilities and Infantry only mechanics is disrupting and in some cases ruining that combined arms experience.


So I'm not just complaining, Here are my suggestions...

Most all objectives in the game should rightfully be only captured by Infantry, But there does need to be some objectives that Players inside of Vehicles can capture... These objectives need to be set-up outside of bases, like in the Field... This can range from capturing the Ammo-Tower as a objective, to the Sunderer Garage.

This could even be added into the long demanded Vehicle-Depot that lets vehicles drive into and equip a different loadout without having to spawn a brand new vehicle. You can add this unique structure as a attachment to pre-existing facilities and slap a Objective point onto it.

Expand on this and add flying Sky-Platforms/hangars or even Hovering Gun-Platforms that the aircraft can capture. PS2 is set in the year 2845, Why can't Pillbox emplacements hover in the sky?

You still have the option to capture all these new objectives with Infantry, but creating Objectives that vehicles can capture expands and compliments the Combined Arms that PS2 is suppose to be.


Finally there's the Loadstar cargo craft that you can load up X amount of ground-vehicles into and fly them across the Continent to a battle. There's a HUGE problem in the fact that the rest of the Squad/Platoon can re-deploy across the continent without penalty (excluding the MAX). Tanks cannot redeploy without a heavy CD and Resource cost. Tanks are also slow so by the time they get to the fight the Squad/Platoon has already moved on. The Loadstar would allow Tanks to redeploy faster and keep up with the Competitive redeployment.

With the loadstar is the concern that Players would just drop Tanks inside of there beloved Infantry-Only facilities which is a valid concern, one of which I counter with the fact that Infantry-Only facilities have no room for Tanks to maneuver or even move at all, they become static turrets that will just choke a lane and end up as free XP for a Light-Assault. Anyone who drops a Tank into a infantry only facility and gets stuck deserves to become free XP for any opportunistic Tank-Hunter.

If SOE even wants they can reinvent the wheel and add some brand new method of transporting Vehicles so that they can keep up with the redeploying of Infantry.


TL/DR - New Esamire inspired base design adopted into new Amerish & Hossin Base design with Vehicle Spawning is the Nail-in-the-Coffin for Tank combat. I think there's no point at all in spawning Tanks, I ask the question what purpose if any is there for Tanks in Competitive gameplay and lastly propose recommended solutions to help fix this combined arms problem.


I hope this thread brings to light the dillema of the Tanker in Planetside 2 and gets the discussion snow-balling on Tanks.
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Old 2014-02-01, 03:14 PM   [Ignore Me] #2
typhaon
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


Tanks are too weak, too cheap, and too easy to spawn.

I've never bought that tanks were great armor vs. armor... Tanks are great at camping infantry spawns... and to counter that, SOE gave every infantry (cept infiltrators) excellent tank counters.
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Old 2014-02-01, 03:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #3
Edfishy
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


Last night we got in the habit of just using a Galaxy to lulz spam infantry right ontop of tanks. Gotta say, the tanks would score 4-5 kills before we'd take'em down, but it was definitely an interesting tactic to see.

Adding a "Lodestar" utility for Galaxies that'd allow them to scoop up and deploy tanks Starcraft-style is very much needed though. It'd definitely put Tank-play into smaller squads. Put whatever penalties on it you like (i.e. Only one MBT or two LBT's, Galaxy must "deploy", Galaxy must be still, etc).
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Old 2014-02-01, 03:52 PM   [Ignore Me] #4
HereticusXZ
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


Gal dropping right ontop of a Tank - The tank usually doesn't see this coming. When it does see you coming yeah it might get a few kills but you can just respawn 5-10 seconds later or be revived on the spot by a medic without penalty... The tank takes a heavy Resource hit and bothersome CD timer when it dies.

Some of these problems that the tank suffers from are rooted in the natural flaws with our current resource system of which SOE has a new Resource system in the works, so I can be patient and wait for that... But the vast majority of problems with the Tanks are suffering from, at least IMO, Is the fact that any and all mechanics or competitive balancing... the entirety of the game is built around Infantry and nothing else.

SOE needs to build some mechanics in the game around vehicles gameplay or at least be consistent in mechanics... Something that always bugged me is facility gate shields... Tanks can't pass through but Infantry can, Tanks can't shoot through but Infantry can? That's a Energy Shield it should block infantry just like it blocks tanks.

Ultimately what point is there in a Tank when the Infantry can do anything and everything better, faster, and for free.
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Old 2014-02-01, 04:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #5
ringring
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


So during beta and prior we had gals as amses and a kill cam that showed the location of the person who killed you; we objected and persuaded the devs to remove them or to not put them in and now it seems that battle seems to have to be fought again.

Brilliant.
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Old 2014-02-01, 05:29 PM   [Ignore Me] #6
HereticusXZ
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


Don't get me wrong, Vehicle spawning especially on a Galaxy was a needed addition.

Speaking strictly competitively the Galaxy was largely useless beyond just taxi to the objective then discarded to maximize more players pushing a objective.

You had the option to keep 1 or 2 gunners onboard the Gal for a battle-galaxy but this IMO was largely under utilized because Pilots couldn't convince people to gun. Gunners preferred the more effective Liberator, MBT, and Harasser guns to get kills over the ineffective Gal weapons.

Now players have more of a incentive to care about keeping the Galaxy alive.

With all that said I do think however there needs to be some kind of limitation to it, maybe a CD similar to the Squad Beacon, or make squad spawn in a vehicle or a utility slot cert line.

This unlimited squad spawn makes things like Tanks (Tanks relevance is the entire point of this thread) completely irrelevant or why bother with a Sunderer at all beyond GSD into a Tech-Plant or non-freyr design Amp-Station.
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Old 2014-02-02, 11:31 AM   [Ignore Me] #7
Shamrock
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


Originally Posted by HereticusXZ View Post

With all that said I do think however there needs to be some kind of limitation to it, maybe a CD similar to the Squad Beacon, or make squad spawn in a vehicle or a utility slot cert line.
Agreed, though I'm loving the flexibility it brings for deployment I'm already starting to see this mechanic being exploited in a number of ways, it needs a timer limit, even a short one to avoid the "its raining men" scenarios I've already started to see.
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Old 2014-02-02, 12:26 PM   [Ignore Me] #8
KesTro
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


Hierarchy of Planetside.

Aircraft>Armor>Infantry.

That being said I don't think I'd mind some objectives players in vehicles could capture. There's more than a few HUGE open fields on Indar and Esamir that could do with some tuning. They're absolute hell to go through to get to the next base. If players were actually urged to pull armor in order to capture an objective in those fields I could see it creating some fun fights.

I don't think the new spawn changes makes tanks any less relevant than they have ever been. It just a way to hard counter things you previously couldn't. Enemy zerging 40 tanks? Well then zerg air and force some of them to pull AA. Even when those forces are inside the base SOE has stated and seems deadset on going in the direction that ground vehicles should be interfering with the actions inside a base on a very minimal level. They actually said one FNO that if you find yourself getting tank shelled at spawn to go ahead and report it as a bug. Vehicles are just a way to get you from one base to the next now a days, no more camping on a hill and being 'tactical' by spamming the spawn with HE.
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Old 2014-02-02, 02:01 PM   [Ignore Me] #9
HereticusXZ
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


I completely agree that Tanks (or vehicles in general) shouldn't have a angle on the spawn-room because that's just obnoxious - If vehicles are spamming the spawn then you don't have a "enjoyable" fight in any sense of the word.


Looking at Tanks from a competitive angle... What use do they have outside of Indar and objectiveless fields?

- New Esamire base design has giant walls or large crystal/rock formations completely denying Tanks any and all access to the fight, relegating them to the Fields where there's no objective.

- New Amerish from what I've seen is more of the same inspirations from Esamire with walls and natural barriers denying Tanks in favor of Infantry only zones.

Competitively speaking to take a facility you need to work out the logistics of getting the majority of your Squad/Platoon to the Objective. In the past you needed to gal drop and hold the objective with medics/squad beacon or fight for a foot-hold with tanks to get your Sunderer in with fresh troops spawning in. So you had a reason to spawn tanks to establish that beach head.

Now you can hover a galaxy at the flight ceiling and just drop in right on the objective in the middle of those giant walled/barrier facilities, instantly respawning on said gal. No need for tanks or a beachhead unless you want pub support... and that's it.

What relevance does the Tank have in the competitive side of things?
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Old 2014-02-02, 02:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
HereticusXZ
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


Further discouragement of Tanks is the fact that the MBT is the single most expensive vehicle in the entire game to spawn... Costing you 450/750 Mechanized Resources. That's without you're Empire owning Esamire for the mechanized discount.

The MBT is also the ONLY vehicle in the entire game restricted to the requirement of your Empire owning and having connecting Territory to a Tech-plant in order to spawn a MBT.
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Old 2014-02-02, 02:51 PM   [Ignore Me] #11
KesTro
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


Some fair points. I still see a use for armor in that there comes a point where any fight will reach a critical mass in scale and one faction has to zerg armor to push the other faction out. It seems they're a tool to push forces past a 'brick wall' at which point that momentum will carry you forwards until you hit a base like Quartz Ridge and everyone loses their vehicles again.

That however is not a new cycle in terms of armor play in Planetside. Rather than looking to tweak existing avenues of tank play they should probably explore different things for tankers to do. Once the resource system is in and we have the gathering points on the map I can see tank play becoming very important in escorting your ANT and becoming a convoy.

In the mean time best thing I can offer anyone is to do the same thing we've been doing since day one. Grab your rifle and hang on tight, because it's going to be a looong ride.
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Old 2014-02-03, 11:30 AM   [Ignore Me] #12
HereticusXZ
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


I feel like even still in these critical mass fights where you have 48+ on both sides of a facility fight even still you wouldn't spawn tanks. Maybe a lonewolf looking to farm easy kills or a pub/new squad/platoon leader who isn't yet familiar with all aspects of the game.

Any organized Outfit would either avoid this critical mass fight as a waste of manpower in favor of grabbing up territory/going around a fortified position or Easily drop inside the enemy perimeter via Vehicle Spawn and Galaxy Drop.

I dunno... Out of personnel experience ever sense the lattice introduction and especially in the new Esamire base design all tanks can really do is sit outside of a facility and wait for the Infantry to get the objective. It's always been a Galaxy drop that decides who wins in a critical mass fight.

Again though I'm speaking on average and not exceptions to the rule.
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Old 2014-02-03, 06:31 PM   [Ignore Me] #13
Edfishy
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


This is just me personally so take it for what it's worth, but I've never found Planetside 2's tank combat fun to play compared to other games. They're tanks, and they're there, but they aren't fun. On the other hand, I've found World of Tanks tank combat to be plenty of fun. Why is PS2's tank gameplay not fun?

A) Shooting Tank vs Tank isn't fun.
In World of Tanks, the third person overhead view in WoT allows me clearly see the surrounding terrain and just point and click the guy. In Planetside 2, pixel-hunting the bad guy in a first-person view with terribly slippy movement and bad terrain is murder, and so I'll just play sniper vs. sniper instead to get the cat & mouse gameplay I'm looking for.

B) Vs. Infantry blows.
When I spawn a tank (as NC or TR), I feel nine times out of ten I'll lose my tank to infantry within minutes. Sit still for anywhere too long, C-4'ed. Get too close to a base? Rocketed. SOE was aiming for battlefield, I know, but I don't know if the BF infantry vs. tank combat translates as well in an MMO where vehicles are so painful to lose.

C) Terrible terrain for tanks.
Nowhere to roam, too much of my geometry exposed to infantry no matter what I hide behind, and tanks that have zero traction (My God, they're freakin' TANKS!). Poor traction is likely an effort by the coders to minimize friction/torque physics checks, so there's not likely to be a change, but jeeeeeze.

D) No objectives for tanks.
Add a "Vehicle Control Point" that's off the beaten path away from bases, only vehicles can capture, and influences the worldspace in a different way than normal. Move the ammunition depots into more locations away from bases so that you need to capture the linked Vehicle Control Points to activate it for your empire. Throw in the new energy bridges Clegger's working on for Amerish as an additional vehicle-only capturable objective. Boom, done. Capture the V.C.P. and three linked bridges / three ammo depots / three gates are converted to your empire, etc.

E) Drivers and gunners should be seperated for MBT's. (Or add a rear-view mirror button!)
I remember the engine limitations that prevented this, but it has to be fixed at some point. In a heavy armor column, I'll have to move forward and backward to avoid rockets and tankshells, but I can't see behind me and I have to turn my main cannon around to make sure I don't run into my allies. Makes for pathetic tank combat.




In the meantime I'll just avoid tanks and go Harasser, which atleast has a functional "Tank Crew" and better mobility. =P
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Old 2014-02-04, 08:43 PM   [Ignore Me] #14
HereticusXZ
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


I agree and I disagree Edfishy...

I won't entertain the idea that PS2 will ever have the same tanking mechanics as WoT or Warthunder: Ground Forces because that would be a unreal expectation (As much as I would LOOOOVE for them to emulate Warthunder Ground Forces).

What I do expect is a MBT Update to get bumped up on the to-do list or failing that give us bits or pieces of said MBT update. The infantry though not perfect have had way to much love between a plethora of weapons being added, Infantry only facilities, and now Squad-Spawning inside of Vehicles on the move.... Namely galaxies that hover at flight ceiling where a MBT cannot bring it's cannon to bear!

I'm not asking for the MBT to be thee #1 concern, that role belongs to Intercontinental lattice, Resource Revamp, and Hossin as far as I'm concerned... But the Infiltrators just got that Bolt-Action Head-shot update as well as a fair amount of SMG's to play with along with AI Mine twerks... Now there's getting a sweeping update with rumors of REK drones and Vehicle hacking... (IMO This update will only partially be implemented if the first ESF and MAX update are anyway to judge). Infantry have also had a plethora of NS Weapons, Faction Specific Weapons, and a ton of facilitys redesigned specifically with Infantry in mind.



What I want?

- Vehicle Depots/Garage that you can drive into and change your equipment loadouts w/o having to respawn a new Tank! Could even go the extra mile and make such a vehicle garage into a Attached objective to pre-existing facilities.

- The option to Warp a Tank from one continent to the next w/o having to abandon my vehicle to spawn a new tank!

- Field Objectives that Tanks and other vehicles can fight over and capture, Maybe a facility that's built for Vehicles to fight over, Vehicle only zones!

- Loadstar Vehicle Air-Lift or a certable utility option on pre-existing aircraft that allows them to transport a ground vehicle!

- Equal restrictions to bring definition or reason to facilities. If the Tech-Plant is a requirement for MBT, Make the Amp Station a requirement for either the ESF or Liberator. The Bio-Lab a requirement for the MAX unit.

- Dedicated Vehicle Crews, 3 man Tanks. If Infantry have this huge fear that Tanks are so OP then make Tanks stronger at the cost of requiring dedicated crews! (I have hope for the teased NS-MBT).




I think ultimately what I'm asking for isn't just a MBT update but a in-general Ground-Vehicle update to bring classic vehicle mechanics from when PS2 first launched up to snuff with all these new mechanics ever sense the Lattice or new-base designs were released. Tanks need some love if SOE is going to go down the road of Rock-Paper-Scissors with loadouts and equipment because there's no need for Rock (tank) when the game revolves around Paper (Inf) and Scissors (Air) right now.
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Old 2014-02-04, 10:17 PM   [Ignore Me] #15
War Barney
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Re: No Auraxis for Tanks!


Tanks have been screwed up for a while, I've always found it odd that people say the game is becoming *infantryside* when it seems to have been *vehiclesidE* for aaaages now, you can spawn a HUGE tank for almost nothing and by the time you die in it most of the time you can spawn another even if you didn't use certs to reduce the acquisition timer.

I spend most of my time blowing up tanks but I never feel like I'm helping that much as unless its a new players more of the time in a couple of minutes the tank I blew up is back with the same people in it.

It would be nice for 1 thing is tanks needed a dedicated driver again to stop lightning spam, it would be nice if the person using the top turret could be stop, it would be nice if the acquisition timer was longer, it would be nice if when you stood right next to a tank it couldn't somehow hit you (honestly I've never got this RIGHT next to a tank you should be safe from the main gun but somehow it defies logic to hit you).

If they did all of this I'd be happy with buffs to tanks as they would be more like tanks! not cheap to get, something you can't spam BUT when you get one its a tough cookie to crack. The flash can be spammed as its just easy transport for a huge map but a tank shouldn't be spammable.

A lot of the stuff heretic mentions would probably need to be added for this to happen as people would be pissed if they had to move continent when they just spawned a tank and then needed to wait an hour to spawn a new one. Hell those ideas would actually make it even cooler, imagine either a new type of aircraft for carrying multiple aircraft or just galaxies carrying tanks below them THAT would be cool.

As for the whole galaxy thing thats such a pain and I hope they revert it... whoever has the best air now will almost always win as they can bomb you to hell AND have a constant untouchable spawn point anywhere they like, even over places that normally stop you spawning. I have no idea how they thought that would be good, why did it even need to happen there was no reason at all but theres lots of reasons it shouldn't happen.

And no infantry can't do everything better, you die constantly to snipers and have no chance of escape if your spotted first, if you're spotted first as a tank you just run the person over or run away easily if theres to many then repair back to full faster than rockets can kill you. While it is odd to see barriers that vehicles can't get past but infantry can and I'd like to see another way of that being done it would be INSANE if there wasn't something to stop vehicles...

Can you imagine planetside where everybody is in a tank cos theres no downside to it at all just rolling into bases with 50 tanks then jumping out to take the point then hopping back in again, how would you even stop a column or 50-100 tanks if theres nothing to stop them instantly rolling over you? the only answer would be your own 50-100 tanks and at that point other than capturing points infantry would be completely worthless
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