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Old 2012-03-15, 02:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #76
Coreldan
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Re: Free-To-Play


Originally Posted by Kriegson View Post
I beg to differ. I'm not speaking of GM's that might randomly roam about looking for hackers, but more of GM's that can respond to overwhelming reports of hackusation on an individual.
Obviously this requires a better system for reporting potential hackers than say...sending an email into support and leaving them to sort through everything from account issues, to store refunds, to glitches and exploits.

I recently started playing world of tanks, and they have quite an innovative and intuitive system.
A player has some 3 complaints (A day? A week? Not sure, haven't used any yet) to use. When their complaint is reviewed, they will be rated based on how relevant or useful it is. Players who send legitimate or useful complaints receive higher priority, while those that send useless or illegitimate complaints receive lower priority.

Now imagine if we had a system like this regarding potential aimbotters. Someone who screams "HAAAAX" at everyone who kills him will have virtually no priority. While someone who is respected and has sent useful, legitimate complaints will likely prompt GM action rather quickly.

This would filter out the thousands of useless hackusations and complaints, for the handful of legitimate complaints and reasonable accusations.

Hrm, actually going to make a thread on this and see what people think.
Definitely. This idea has also been suggested a lot of times on APB forums too and refined in theory pretty far too. It would take a fair amount of coding, but it would be the best way to incorporate easy to use report system with a system that doesnt instantly make them run out of manpower when they have to check AccusatorJoe95s every report he makes about players who are better than him.

Perhaps you should even make a thread about it to the idea vault, cos I think a system like that would be superior to just about any other possible system, and it really is only about the coding part of it.
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Old 2012-03-15, 02:42 PM   [Ignore Me] #77
Kriegson
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Re: Free-To-Play


Originally Posted by Coreldan View Post
Definitely. This idea has also been suggested a lot of times on APB forums too and refined in theory pretty far too. It would take a fair amount of coding, but it would be the best way to incorporate easy to use report system with a system that doesnt instantly make them run out of manpower when they have to check AccusatorJoe95s every report he makes about players who are better than him.

Perhaps you should even make a thread about it to the idea vault, cos I think a system like that would be superior to just about any other possible system, and it really is only about the coding part of it.
Indeed! The coding couldn't be THAT complex, it basically works like some forums do. Having a "Score" for someone based on how their posts are upvoted or downvoted.
All they have to do is organize that "score" and implement a method of giving people finite complaints.
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Old 2012-03-15, 03:03 PM   [Ignore Me] #78
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Re: Free-To-Play


Originally Posted by Kriegson View Post
I beg to differ. I'm not speaking of GM's that might randomly roam about looking for hackers, but more of GM's that can respond to overwhelming reports of hackusation on an individual.
Obviously this requires a better system for reporting potential hackers than say...sending an email into support and leaving them to sort through everything from account issues, to store refunds, to glitches and exploits.

I recently started playing world of tanks, and they have quite an innovative and intuitive system.
A player has some 3 complaints (A day? A week? Not sure, haven't used any yet) to use. When their complaint is reviewed, they will be rated based on how relevant or useful it is. Players who send legitimate or useful complaints receive higher priority, while those that send useless or illegitimate complaints receive lower priority.

Now imagine if we had a system like this regarding potential aimbotters. Someone who screams "HAAAAX" at everyone who kills him will have virtually no priority. While someone who is respected and has sent useful, legitimate complaints will likely prompt GM action rather quickly.

This would filter out the thousands of useless hackusations and complaints, for the handful of legitimate complaints and reasonable accusations.

Hrm, actually going to make a thread on this and see what people think.
This has been discussed in full before here already. We actually referenced the LoL Tribunal system. See this thread for that discussion: Trial by your peers?

Originally Posted by NivexQ View Post
Anyone who's better than I am is a cheater, anyone who's worse than I am is a n00b. That is the creed of our people.
That's a funny statement. I recently had someone tell me I was a cheater after killing them solo. I asked him how this was. His response, "Anyone who kills me is a cheater." :P
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Old 2012-03-15, 05:04 PM   [Ignore Me] #79
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Re: Free-To-Play


Originally Posted by Coreldan View Post
It's good to note that the GMs effect in the end are fairly small too.

Usually if someone is blatant enough to be verified as cheater by looking, PB can catch them all the same. GMs are gonna make a really tough decision if someone is subtle enough with the cheats.

If PS2 is done right, all we have are aimbots and wallhacks. If the person cheating isn't stupid, they tweak their cheats (at least the most famous commercial cheats are very tweakable) to a point where nobody can for 100% certainity say whether they are cheating or just really good. Even an invisible GM can probably observe these cheaters and notice that he seems to know where people come from pretty often, but is that down to luck or perhaps a really good set of headphones that makes you able to hear foodsteps etc really well? Also, the same smart cheater will occasionally let people "catch them offguard" simply so people feel that "well at least now he had no clue I was coming".

That said, most cheaters arn't like I explained above, but the thing is as I said, the most blatant cases are caught by PB pretty much all the same, while GMs can't be any more sure of the highly tweaked cheaters. In the end, we have a bunch of really expensive but non effective game masters.
That's the thing though. If the hackers "only" boost themselves to a level where they compete on equal levels of the top players, not much harm will be caused since there will be people on an equal skill level able to take him down.

Blatant cheaters will be caught and banned on a day-to-day basis, "real" cheaters will be tougher to catch, but won't cause as much hassle as the scriptkiddies with the aimbot turned up 10000%.

My point being: I'm not too worried about cheats and hacks. PS2 will be server-side, so the worst we'll see will be toned down aimbots (aka useless cheats).
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Old 2012-03-15, 05:23 PM   [Ignore Me] #80
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Re: Free-To-Play


Originally Posted by Bonius View Post
That's the thing though. If the hackers "only" boost themselves to a level where they compete on equal levels of the top players, not much harm will be caused since there will be people on an equal skill level able to take him down.
Tonnes of harm will be caused. Player skill in video games is on a bell curve.



The vast majority of players are right in the middle, average. When you get a large number of hackers artificially raising their skill level you shift the entire bell curve to the right, this causes thousands of people to not play, or to start hacking also, shifting the curve further right causing those others that don't want to hack to quit.

Hackers that pretend to be legitimate are JUST as damaging to a game as the ones that come in, kill every instantly and get themselves banned. In fact, there's plenty of argument to say that they're far worse in the long run.
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Old 2012-03-15, 05:36 PM   [Ignore Me] #81
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Re: Free-To-Play


Originally Posted by Skitrel View Post
Tonnes of harm will be caused. Player skill in video games is on a bell curve.



The vast majority of players are right in the middle, average. When you get a large number of hackers artificially raising their skill level you shift the entire bell curve to the right, this causes thousands of people to not play, or to start hacking also, shifting the curve further right causing those others that don't want to hack to quit.

Hackers that pretend to be legitimate are JUST as damaging to a game as the ones that come in, kill every instantly and get themselves banned. In fact, there's plenty of argument to say that they're far worse in the long run.
You're speaking of large numbers of hackers. Developers are people too, if 15% of the playerbase suddenly starts playing like the top 1%, my guess is that they already know something is wrong and are already acting to prevent it.

Another thing you need to take into account is that the top percentage of players will always be there. There will always be a handful of people that will beat the living crap out of you, every single time. There is absolutely nothing you can do about that, apart from raising your own skill-level.

Your fancy diagram will still look exactly the same, even if everyone was cheating.
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Old 2012-03-15, 06:17 PM   [Ignore Me] #82
basti
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Re: Free-To-Play


Originally Posted by Skitrel View Post
Tonnes of harm will be caused. Player skill in video games is on a bell curve.



The vast majority of players are right in the middle, average. When you get a large number of hackers artificially raising their skill level you shift the entire bell curve to the right, this causes thousands of people to not play, or to start hacking also, shifting the curve further right causing those others that don't want to hack to quit.

Hackers that pretend to be legitimate are JUST as damaging to a game as the ones that come in, kill every instantly and get themselves banned. In fact, there's plenty of argument to say that they're far worse in the long run.

Right, but only affects if those stealthy hackers never get dectected. But they will. Punkbuster got some nice features, but there is some other stuff the devs can do given that they do their own engine.

If they do it right, its gotta be quite hard to cheat in PS2. Hard enough to make it rahter impossible for the usual script kiddy. Means all those guys buying hacks form someone or downloading them somewhere will get banned within seconds, and the only cheaters remaining are those who are capable of doing their own hacks. But given that Forgelight is completly new, it will take quite a while to figure out how to break it. And given they can change the engine freely, its possible that the devs can just close whatever holes there are that allow hacking.


Given that they invest the nessesary work, of course. If they dont, as happening in BF3 and APB right now, then nothing can stop hacking. Its a constant battle between hackers and the devs, a battle that can never be won by the devs, but a battle they have to constantly fight, because otherwise they loose.
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Old 2012-03-15, 06:26 PM   [Ignore Me] #83
Rumblepit
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Re: Free-To-Play


you can have the best anti hack detection there is, you can have the best report system ever created,with the most dedicated admins you will ever meet, a dedicated community that reports all hackers,but all these things are useless if a hacker can make another account 3 mins after he was banned. THE ONLY WAY TO GET RID OF HACKERS IS THE HURT THEIR WALLET.

im sure you all have faith in your admins and devs, but they will loose!!!!!!! if hackers are able to make accounts over and over again for free then you all will see first hand what hacker waves are.THEY DONT CARE IF THEY GET BANNED!!!!!! THEY DONT CARE !!!!! they will make another account and be right back in game hacking again.

Last edited by Rumblepit; 2012-03-15 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 2012-03-15, 06:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #84
basti
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Re: Free-To-Play


Originally Posted by Rumblepit View Post
you can have the best anti hack detection there is, you can have the best report system ever created,with the most dedicated admins you will ever meet, a dedicated community that reports all hackers,but all these things are useless if a hacker can make another account 3 mins after he was banned. THE ONLY WAY TO GET RID OF HACKERS IS THE HURT THEIR WALLET.

im sure you all have faith in your admins and devs, but they will loose!!!!!!! if hackers are able to make accounts over and over again for free then you all will see first hand what hacker waves are.THEY DONT CARE IF THEY GET BANNED!!!!!! THEY DONT CARE !!!!! they will make another account and be right back in game hacking again.




Hardware bans. Nuff said



And if you even remotly suggest that the F2P model should be abadoned for P2P, i order to stop hackers, then you are a giant fool. P2P does not work if you dont offer players the ability to try the game (free trials), and without free trials, you will get almost no new players. Means the game would die rather quickly.
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Old 2012-03-15, 07:01 PM   [Ignore Me] #85
Rumblepit
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Re: Free-To-Play


Originally Posted by basti View Post




Hardware bans. Nuff said



And if you even remotly suggest that the F2P model should be abadoned for P2P, i order to stop hackers, then you are a giant fool. P2P does not work if you dont offer players the ability to try the game (free trials), and without free trials, you will get almost no new players. Means the game would die rather quickly.
A lot of NICs nowadays allow you to change the MAC address. Plus, if it actually bans you from the game by the MAC all they'd need do is either change the MAC address or buy a new network card. (which even for the good 3com ones are dirt cheap) also most private hacks come with programs to change said numbers...

and no im not saying they should abandon f2p, but im am saying there will be hackers, LOTS OF THEM and the only thing we can do is ban them over and over again, and hope they get bored.....

ive have seen it many times, admins wont win.....i have banned more hackers then most players and admins have ever seen. ive have dedication like you read about when it comes to hack free gameplay .but at the end of the day its like shoveling shet into the tide. you gain no ground and the same script kiddies are at it again the next day.

so i ask you this basti, have you ever played a skill based f2p game????? or you just talking smack??? because everyone who has knows what im talking about, and you appear to be in the dark my friend.
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Old 2012-03-19, 01:21 PM   [Ignore Me] #86
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Re: Free-To-Play


Originally Posted by RadarX View Post
The last one I see all the time is "There are more cheaters! There is no consequence!" Statistically with more players, you will get more cheaters. This allows us to improve our detection process and honestly we've found in our other products that the folks who go this route are usually very very minor. We catch them quickly and nuke their account. Can they start over? At times yes they can. How long does that stay fun though?
On this point I am all in favor of players being given the tools to bring cheaters to the attention of the admins. Something along the lines of

/report (playername), (offense)

Of course this could lead to false positives so I recommend that you have a report number threshold so that if say, 30 people report the same guy in a certain space of time you will know to look into it.
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Old 2012-03-19, 02:14 PM   [Ignore Me] #87
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Re: Free-To-Play


A streamlined, easy IN-GAME cheat report method must be available. And there must be staff available that is willing to address the cheaters. Cheaters ruin games -- especially f2p games.

Skitrel is right about the cheater argument in the previous 5 pages. Anyone who says that cheaters are easy to beat is simply retarded. A cheater who has massively toned down his cheats and is dying on purpose to keep his stats more reasonable to avoid detection is beatable -- by design.

A hacker with no "stealth mode" settings is impossible to beat and what he does/can do is impossible to reproduce without hacks. Simple as that.
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Old 2012-03-19, 03:02 PM   [Ignore Me] #88
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Re: Free-To-Play


Originally Posted by Lokster View Post
A streamlined, easy IN-GAME cheat report method must be available. And there must be staff available that is willing to address the cheaters. Cheaters ruin games -- especially f2p games.

Skitrel is right about the cheater argument in the previous 5 pages. Anyone who says that cheaters are easy to beat is simply retarded. A cheater who has massively toned down his cheats and is dying on purpose to keep his stats more reasonable to avoid detection is beatable -- by design.

A hacker with no "stealth mode" settings is impossible to beat and what he does/can do is impossible to reproduce without hacks. Simple as that.
Wich is exactly what we've been discussing over these 6 pages.

A hacker in "no-stealth-mode" will most probably be banned with short notice, seeing as the cheat is so obvious. A cheater with stealth-mode activated will not cause as much harm as the no-stealth cheater, since he will only be on par with the better players of the community.
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Old 2012-03-19, 11:34 PM   [Ignore Me] #89
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Re: Free-To-Play


I do not understand how Sony is planning on making money unless they charge $50 for the client like every other FPS on the planet. Full stop.
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Old 2012-03-19, 11:39 PM   [Ignore Me] #90
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Re: Free-To-Play


Originally Posted by Rivenshield View Post
I do not understand how Sony is planning on making money unless they charge $50 for the client like every other FPS on the planet. Full stop.
Yeah, I don't know how RIOT plans on making money either~
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