Tweaking current buggies for PS:N

[BorisBlade]

(if you have A.D.D. you can skip to the bottom for the TL/DR version)

I've always liked using the faster moving vehicles for a more hit and run or attack from range style of vehicle fights. The deliverer is godly at this, but requires two gunners and isnt quite as fast as it used to be and is no where near as fun to drive as a thresher.

Which brings us to the empire specific buggies. They are very fast, but lightly armored. However, they are not good for ranged attacks so you have to move in close to use them effectively. But they arent designed for burst either so you cant really do hit and run very well either.

Then is the problem of finding their design goal. Is it hit and run? Is it high AV or high AI or medium effect on both? Whats the reason i would want to use this over another two man vehicle (3man in the case of the TR).

To this end lets look at what each has and options for changin them. For a new PS game.

**Thresher**

This is how a buggy should be, fast and very maneuverable. You can easily maneuver thru trees and around obstacles and corners. Its what all buggies should feel like. But much of that comes from being able to do slight strafing adjustments to fine tune your steering. This isnt possible on the other buggies so getting their steering to handle very well without the strafe will be very important.

Its armor is very low but feels balanced with its good speed/handling and ability to hover over water.

Its weapon, the orbs move way too slow. They must be sped up alot, closer to what the grenades move on the marauder. you cant hit anything at range that moves. The av damage seems fine when you do hit tho. Its AI damage is prob a bit low and could be buffed a bit, takes way too many orbs to kill one person even hitting dead on. Maybe splitting the AI/AV damage into two modes. AI mode fires in an arc but does more AI damage than current but less AV. AV mode has the straight trajectory, same AV as current but less AI. The sped up projectiles help shots land much more easily at range. And also functions as a poor mans AA, its faster shots allow you to not be a sitting duck to air but obviously will not make you any kind of AA weapon, just more of a "keep em at bay while i run away" weapon.


**Marauder**

The marauder is in a unique situation, 2 gunners. If you have two gunners, get a deliverer, period. There is never a time you want a marauder over a deli. If you dont understand how insanely good a deliverer is, you are really missing out. (most people dont) The other thing, you can get two marauders, or 3 vanguards/magriders with the same people. Its just absurd. That second gunner must be all gravy, as in if you dont have it you still work as well as the other two buggies, or its mandatory and just bad design.

Its armor is the highest of the buggies but considering how low buggy armor is, and how you get hit much more easily and cant maneuver as well as a thresher, it doesnt really help.

The weapons arent too bad. Its grenades are ok, The arc needs to be flattened out like the thresher. Let it be the AV mode. Then have the 12mm usable by the same gunner in secondary mode for AI. (or maybe a modified version of it) The second gunner seat would be removed. This finally gives the TR a good two person AI/AV vehicle. The 12mm would allow for the same half-ass AA that the thresher would have.


**Enforcer**

This is the one i have the least time on sadly. Its a very AV centered vehicle. Its AI is actually high as well. The weapon on this vehicle is probably the best but still is flawed in several ways.

Its armor is ok, and does suffer the same control issues as the marauder and should be tweaked too.

The weapon, great AV. I havent had enough runs to judge the projectile speed. But it may not need changed considering its current damage output. Its AI is odd, and should prob instead have a secondary gun for AI purposes. A modified gauss cannon or somethin, which could also function for AA.

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*overall buggy changes*

Speed and handling - The buggies need a speed boost. Currently the old CSHD system gets wonky the faster you move and can cause warping and other illusions between what you see and whats going on due to lag and other problems. This will prob be much less of a problem with the new PS. So boosting the speeds up shouldnt be as much of an issue. If its gonna be lightly armored, it needs to be fast to make up for it. And as mentioned the handling on these vehicles should be about as good as it gets for ground vehicles.

**Adding Flavor/uniqueness**

The buggies need to bring somthin to the table thats unique and fun. They should be a nice visible part of every fight, not just on battle islands or when you have no tech. You should still want to pull them even if you have tech plants.

Look at the sunderer. its "cool factor" is its ability to bypass teh base shields and its very cool EMP blast. Combined with its armor makes it a great door buster or tower buster vehicle. And it clears the CE and disables vehicles. You want some flavor like that in your buggies.

You can go with simple ideas like burst fire modes. You would charge in to close range on your target and unleash the burst mode that fires a hefty salvo for big damage but then incurs a rather long reload time so you have to get out as soon as you fire and get your vehicle to cover. It does allow for the very fun hit and run tactics buggies should do.

Other ideas like a shield capacitor, Say your vehicle has 1500 armor, you get a 500 armor shield that recharges to full in say 30 secs and constantly charges like a bfr (a single pistol will beat out that recharge easily), but obviously is very weak and its recharge rate is low since the shield is low. It would be great to use during a burst fire run for example.

Ive seen other suggestions such as radar immunity, or immunity to spits/auto turrets, etc. And a number of other ideas. Just little things to keep it fun and make the vehicle still desired even if you can get tanks etc.

**Summary or TL/DR version**

Overall the vehicles arent too bad, they do have varying degrees of AI/AV now, but should all be balanced with medium AV and medium/high AI. The marauder needs to be made two person, its a waste putting 3 people into the current vehicle and TR have no 2 person pilot/gunner vehicles for AI/AV. They all need viable defense against air, just enough to by some time to get away. The speed needs buffed across the board and handling improved for the TR/NC. The projectile arcs need to go, atleast in av mode (or entirely if there is no av mode). Projectiles need to move at decent speeds as well so you can hit your targets at range which is key to a low armor vehicle. And finally the vehicles need a fun factor, they need to be wanted even if you have tech plants. Burst/salvo modes are very cool as well as small shields or a host of other ideas.

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So if anyone else has any ideas, lets hear em. Thats a simple breakdown if the current vehicles made it into ps2. Its not a total revamp idea. Even with an all new game the ideas still hold up for a general theme.

And yeah i totally forgot the harasser. it needs some lovin too, but that will have to wait til another thread unless you guys have some ideas for it.

[Goku]

I like these ideas a lot. The Enforcer always had a special place in my heart. I enjoyed having the vehicle for getting A to B, since it was quick and could take a few mines. Though using it anywhere but battle islands starts to be a issue as you mentioned. I had good runs with the Enforcer against infantry thanks to the 1 shot kill, but that is low compared to the vanguard.

I always viewed the buggies as go in quick, do lots of damage, and get the hell out. Though that is hard to pull off with what the buggies are limited to at the moment. Perhaps doing special abilities to allow for short period of time extra fire power or faster fire rate could help. The Marauder and Enforcer could get a faster fire rate while the Thresher could make use of a stronger projectile since it is energy based for example. For a get away you could add on a nitro system onto the buggies to allow a short burst of speed to get out of harms way as well. All that could make for effective use of taking out targets, but not staying in the battlefield as long as a tank.

One thing I would of always liked to see buggies do is chasing down damaged tanks and taking them out. Yet due to the damage output even if you catch a enemy tank off guard you will still be killed due to the tanks superior DPS and even if it has a third of its health. If the changes are properly made you could have a group of buggies going around searching and taking out enemy armour columns that are repairing. Even if you do not take out everything you can get away and do a good amount of damage. It will make going back to the base to heal up for better cover more important then oh lets go behind this hill and we will be safe as it is currently in game.

Is this BorisGT? I remember him being in a prowler often. Not sure if he was gunning or driving, but he was good at whatever position he was. My VG was on the receiving end quite a few times.

[FortunadoAE]

You're absolutely right about the TR being in an awkward spot due to different personnel requirements for their vehicles. Those should all be the same across all empires.

I always thought the Harasser was really fun to drive. I think they should bump up its power and implement some of the uniqueness ideas into the empire buggies. So you'd use the Harasser to harass, and the empire-specific buggy for more specific roles.

[Peacemaker]

All the buggies should not detonate mines, except for the skyguard. I disagree about the thresher's AI needing a buff. It only takes 2 or 3 hits to kill. Increase the speed, give it a nitrous boost, and give it high burst damage but low DPS.

To balance it out properly I think MBTs need speed nerfed, and reload lowered but damage increased. *also the magrider main gun needs a major change, its long distance capability gives it too much power*

I very much agree that the TR vehicles idea of "More people to equal DPS" is retarded. One of the worst balance ideas from PS. It just never works. Not in game anyway. On paper it does, but we don't fight on paper do we?

[Geist]

I've always liked the idea of TR being the "I kill the enemy through overwhelming firepower!!!" You know, where the TR have the potential of doing a lot more damage with their high rof than the other factions, but they have to hit every shot on somewhat inaccurate weapons. However, I never really got that feeling except with the MCG and the Stryker. I surely hope that PS:N fixes what I see as a nearly debilitating problem with TR vehicles.

Other then that, i agree entirely with changing the buggies to be more "HIT AND RUN!!!" instead of miniature versions of the Empire-Specific Tanks that they seem to be now.

[BorisBlade]

Originally Posted by Goku

Is this BorisGT? I remember him being in a prowler often. Not sure if he was gunning or driving, but he was good at whatever position he was. My VG was on the receiving end quite a few times.

No, actually the name is from my TR toon Borisblade-k. I also had a borisblade NC side but never really played that specific toon, i play a little bit of every faction now. The TR one was my main. Was hardcore the first two years on him. I was mostly leading and driving, not gunning. But yeah i know GT, got a couple of tells from him tellin me people thought he was me.

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Yeah the main goal is to give them a role, even if you can get tanks. The 'barage" is what i meant for the hit and run aspect. Sorta like the aurora does with its burst mode. But maybe even more powerful but at the cost of a really long reload which leaves you defenseless so you have to literally hit and run or you get gibbed. The projectile speed is a biggie too, you gotta hit stuff at range, your armor is pathetic. For example a vanguard kills you in three hits in your thresher, with a decent overkill too. And that vanguard has 5000 armor compared to your 1200 and it can attack aircraft (and as a 20mm its the best versus air of any tank). So thats the consideration now, just no point in using an enforcer if you have a tech link.

Make em good at range, good at hit and run, and very fast. Unique abilities, and make em fun to drive. If you get a good driver who can stay at range, and use the terrain well and has a good gunner you should be able to pick off the tanks at the edges or sneak in for a fast burst fire and then speed away before they know what hit em. It sounds like a ton of fun to me if done right.

[Firefly]

BorisBlade from the Trimmers, amirite?

I like the Marauder. I wouldn't fix it for anything, because you can't fix perfection. The Enforcer, I thought the weapon on it was laughable. The Thresher? Come on... that's about as funny as the Beamer.

Though on a side note, as a TR infiltrator I used to run around pewpewing people with a Beamer as sort of a "hey, you REALLY suck".

[LordReaver]

The Enforcer needs a smaller COF and maybe something against it to prevent it from becoming a sniping machine. Seems like a lot of people don't like the low visibility in cockpit view either (I kind of like it).

The Thresher is better than the Marauder if the gunner can actually hit with it. Then combined with the hovering, and you easily have the best buggy. If you think they are a joke, you have clearly never seen what one can do.

The Marauder is good, maybe make it easier to see when you are getting attacked by one. Also, it's engine sounds needs a buff hahaha, I used to own a gas powered golf-cart with a heavier sound than that.

[DviddLeff]

The buggies are pretty good as is; however they should all be available without a techplant (Skyguard included).

If they had a BFR style weapon customisation scheme then you could kit out your buggy to be dedicated AV/AA/AI.

If a crew really use the vehicles speed to their advantage, hitting targets and then moving then a good crew should be able to take down almost any target. Few people can currently do this, but most buggy drivers seem to try and take on tanks head to head, which will never end well. With the customisation system the buggies could be tailored to the role needed, just as we see with modern day military light vehicles.

[TRex]

A slightly different angle on this , and inspired by c&c red alert 2 , is the apc thingies than when a grunt enters the vehicle it becomes an ai apc, an engineer gets in it becomes a repair vehicle.

In planetside I thought, looking at the sunderer ,( or coffin on wheels )and how maxes entered but never had any use other than transportation to next inevitable blowing up.

What if you took the basic concept of the 2 and combined them into buggies. The buggy could be common pool , have a driver and a gunner , but the rear slot would allow a max to enter (on a separate hit box ) and use their offensive weaponry and be able to spin around turret fashion. If you used my idea of changing the AI max to a support role , the buggy could be a fast moving repair station .

It could give the AV max and AA max more of a mobile , more survivable role . Something like a marauder as common pool , but interchangeable roles on the fly . The common pool buggy , with the max would then turn into empire specific.

[Peacemaker]

God please no on two points

1. Making sky guards non tech.
2. Making AA Max's "More survivable"?????

Seriously people. THERE IS ENOUGH AA IN THIS GAME. As it stands now 90% of the time you cant get within a mile of a base under siege (esp playing TR)

[DviddLeff]

The only aircraft that should be spending any significant time over an enemy base are the lib and the gal; to drop off either ordinance or infantry and then escape. The mosquito should be used as recon, spotting the AA and bugging out. The reaver should be hitting armoured targets out in the field, not camping doorways.

Ground based AA should be defending ground forces, if you have aircraft at the flight ceiling they should be hard to take out using Maxs or skyguards.

[TRex]

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Seriously people. THERE IS ENOUGH AA IN THIS GAME. As it stands now 90% of the time you cant get within a mile of a base under siege (esp playing TR)

If there wasn't mass use of air , then there wouldn't be a mass use of AA . You get xp for kills , Logic 1 on 1 -the more air is used , more will cert AA to get kills that way.
I don't use maxes , howether I want them to be used where they fit a role outside of bases . AV maxes are not great in their present form , but could be much more useful if they had mobility.
AA maxes are a different story , they are effective , but like I said , their mass use is a direct result of Air being so easy to mow down infantry ad hoc.
I hope with the new flight mechanics of PS:N that it gives better useage of air cavalry high up in the air vs other air cavalry , and AA is more against direct threats to a base or LLU .
Selective specialization , reduced cert availablility hopefully will bring the use of AA and Air cavalry down to more moderate levels , and we return to individuals fulfilling their roles and expertise within the tic tac toe framework , and neither being a guaranteed no-brainer xp generator .

[BorisBlade]

The AA concerns are why i specifically stated the buggies should just have minor AA defense, aka no better than the 12mm on the marauder. Currently the thresher just dies to any air, its not even a fight. You just die period. Thats not fun in the least. You should get to atleast fight back, you may not kill the air but you can atleast get some damage in and maybe hold em off while you run away for cover amongst some actual AA. Leave the AA to skyguards and maxes.

The problem is, you need two gunners to get that very weak AA currently on a marauder. At which point a deliverer is a better choice, with much more firepower vs ground vehicles, double the armor, water crossing, far better ranged attacks, and deadly AA. (two 20mm guns shred aircraft.) And passenger slots if ya need em to boot. (the deli is a total sleeper, we went 67/2 the other night in a deli i was drivin on cyssor.)

[Logit]

IMO the Prowler and Marauder have an advantage. Yes, they need an extra person, but that also means they can shoot multiple targets at the same time. With the Enforcer and Thresher your forced to chose. I could agree they need balancing but the general idea is that more people = more guns.

How many times have you been chased down by a plane and land vehicle? The prowler is the only tank that can defend both at once, no?