How the heck did SOE achieve such faction loyalty? - Page 4

Razicator · 2012-06-23, 09:02 PM

Ever play World of Warcraft PvP or PvE?

Pvp
Remember pre-cross realm battlegrounds? When the Grand Marshals and Warlords were farming battlegrounds 24/7, and you'd see pre-made 40-guildies Alterac Valley? You knew the names of every single High Warlord and who was running what battleground groups. You knew which guilds had the best PvPers. There was a lot of rivalry between factions. Why? Because you saw the same people again and again, getting to know them. This all got destroyed in cross-realm battlegrounds. It's like matchmaking: you never saw the same people in bgs ever again. No rivalries formed. No one knew or cared about the other team, or hell even your own team. The only time anything like pre-cross realm pvp rivalry came up again was in very high ELO arena games, where you'd see the same teams again and again and developed rivalries. The only "animosity" between factions now is just a general sense of "shamans or paladins are OP as hell and that's why my faction fails in PvP," before Blizzard too got rid of the unique faction classes.

PvE
Pre-crossrealm raiding, you knew who the top guilds were in clearing raids. You knew which guilds were the farthest along in your server in raid progression. You knew which people actually had a full set of Tier 1 gear. You knew which warlocks had the ultra rare Headmaster's Charge (.1% drop rate in an hours long raid). You knew which small guilds would host quick open-to-public Scholomance runs. You knew that the Alliance had OP 5-minute paladin buffs that you'd blame for the Horde in general being behind progression. All this failed when cross-realm raiding and instancing was introduced; no longer did you know or care which guilds were furthest ahead. However, it was a less of a fail than PvP because you still had to know which guilds were best on your server so you can raid with them. But in the smaller raids and instances, you just queued up with randoms anywhere and never seen them again.

PS2
The few servers in PS2, and the inability for you to move one character to another server at will like in a matchmaking FPS, made you very loyal to one server, one faction, one fight. Sure people had multiple characters, but more often than not they were on the same server; hell people would attack their own guilds with alternate accounts for the thrill of killing your friends.

My main fear in PS2 will be that you will be able to move characters from one server to another like matchmaking or like BF3. This will break much of the rivalry between factions. I just feel it in my gut. Sure people will complain that they cannot play with friends, but there are many workarounds. Make a new character, hell they can implement a system where you can copy a character to another server, but not move him. Hell tell your friends to join YOUR server. Heck, paid transfers work fine too, SOE has to make money somehow too.

Then, everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked.

waldizzo · 2012-06-23, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Razicator

Ever play World of Warcraft PvP or PvE?

Pvp
Remember pre-cross realm battlegrounds? When the Grand Marshals and Warlords were farming battlegrounds 24/7, and you'd see pre-made 40-guildies Alterac Valley? You knew the names of every single High Warlord and who was running what battleground groups. You knew which guilds had the best PvPers. There was a lot of rivalry between factions. Why? Because you saw the same people again and again, getting to know them. This all got destroyed in cross-realm battlegrounds. It's like matchmaking: you never saw the same people in bgs ever again. No rivalries formed. No one knew or cared about the other team, or hell even your own team. The only time anything like pre-cross realm pvp rivalry came up again was in very high ELO arena games, where you'd see the same teams again and again and developed rivalries. The only "animosity" between factions now is just a general sense of "shamans or paladins are OP as hell and that's why my faction fails in PvP," before Blizzard too got rid of the unique faction classes.

I came here to post this exact same thing.

Hamma · 2012-06-23, 09:39 PM

That's a good point actually hadn't thought of that.

Xyntech · 2012-06-24, 12:36 AM

I think for a lot of people (or possibly just for me), it's a small but healthy amount of faction loyalty, mixed with a strong dose of exaggeration for fun.

Personally, the VS just suit me well on multiple levels. I like the sci-fi emphasis, I like the style, I liked a lot of the ES weapons and vehicles from the first game... So it's a natural fit. I've generally liked the VS players the most as well.

The TR have been pretty cool for me as well. Their technology, style, and players generally pretty acceptable to my sensibilities. Most of my genuine animosity towards the TR comes from them being my enemy in game, but I really have to work to play up my hatred of them if I want to smack talk them.

But then there are the NC, who I just can't stand. There tech has always been the most annoying for me to fight against, which is compounded by the fact that I feel dirty while using it myself. Very little about their aesthetics or style suits me at all. Their players, back when I played in PS1's early days, were generally more grating on my nerves, even when I was playing along side them. Certainly there are good and bad elements among all of the empires playerbases, but I just don't tend to get along with as many NC players as I have with even TR players and especially VS players.

It's not at all hard for me to play up how much I hate the NC. I still exaggerate it, but it isn't hard.

I think the 3 faction thing is very big. It makes it seem like it's important that you contribute to your side, because you are always outnumbered. It also provides more variety than a binary choice, so there is room to have a lot of hate for even just one of the two enemy factions, while in a two sided game you may be more likely to like both factions.

I think the only game with two factions that I've ever really felt a strong connection with one side was Total Annihilation. ARM > CORE, fuck yeah peewees.

Dagron · 2012-06-24, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Xyntech

I think for a lot of people (or possibly just for me), it's a small but healthy amount of faction loyalty, mixed with a strong dose of exaggeration for fun.

Haha, qft.

WiFiN · 2012-06-25, 03:26 AM

Thing is, when there are only two faceless factions like in TF2 it doesn't matter which side you play. It's just you by your PC and your character is pretty much faceless, so you don't really even care which side wins, just caring for your own score.

But when the factions are dramatically differnt, they have thir own story, their own intentions and values people associate themselves with the factions theat suit themselves, this way they're fighting for the glory of their own faction instead of his own K\D ratio. In PSU there are three distinct factions: Militaristic and force-driven TR, liberal guerilla-like NC, and geeky zealous VS. This way evenyone's fighing for something they belong to, instead of bare XP or kills.

**Malorn** · 2012-06-25, 03:48 AM

Most games stuck with the faction loyalty so long as they didn't disrupt the community or make it super easy to switch sides. I think WoW had good faction loyalty in vanilla. DAoC had good faction loyalty. WAR had it as best I could tell. Anything with that persistent world where swapping sides wasn't trivial.

When games start doing a lot of instancing the persistent world fades (WoW with the cross-realm stuff, for example). Its less about the persistent world and owning it and more about the instant gratification. WoW has become essentially a lobby.

PlanetSide has no instancing and switching sides started out at having a small barrier. So it kept its persistent world, its factions the same, and didn't have a lot of empire hoppers.

PS2 is the same, except for it being easier to hop empires on the same server by making new accounts.

Traak · 2012-06-25, 04:13 AM

I have tended to drift between empires, as they tend to evolve over time. When one empire has smarter, more-organized, and friendlier people, I go there. It's about fun, after all, and no empire has a lock on that, so far.

Soyokaze · 2012-06-25, 05:39 AM

Frankly, those PS1 vets without faction loyalty kinda piss me off.

The TR are a fascist military state. I can sympathize with the NC, but I don't understand how people can bring themselves to play jackbooted thugs. If you are TR, you know that you are the game's villain. You are an oppressor denying other's self governance. You are objectively fighting for the wrong side.

The NC are well meaning, but beyond a general desire to overthrow the government their various conglomerated groups have many and various ideas about what should replace it - or none at all. They're entirely directionless, knowing only that they want to stick it to the man.

The VS do not want war, but it has been forced upon them by the ignorant masses surrounding them. Hell, their innovations are moving humanity beyond war. They have already achieved immortality for christ's sake. If the TR and NC would stop distracting them, how long do you think it would be before limited space and resources would no longer be a factor, proving the whole exercise pointless?

And then some players don't give a damn about any of that and pick their faction based on, what, their favorite gun? Humbug.

Mongo · 2012-06-25, 07:25 AM

Players with no real faction loyalty = 4th empire which we all loved so much.

Ideally you want a game to evoke emotions in it's players, designers are far too happy to try focus on 'fun' instead of pulling the user into the experience which in turn does the same thing but more intensely. When you genuinely care about what happens you really get pulled into the game, and the enjoyment factor sky rockets. In PS you fight the good fight win or loose with your comrades. As people said it pulls on basic instincts of being human.

This sums it up to me personally:

From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

Rago · 2012-06-25, 12:12 PM

I also enjoy the "show".
And im doing fine with that !

velleity · 2012-06-25, 01:05 PM

Its a role playing game mostly built around aoe spells.

Shadanwolf · 2012-06-28, 06:46 AM

Faction pride and loyalty is at the heart of a 3 faction conflict game.Something the game decision makers at Mythic forgot(gutting the very core concept of the game ) when they allow cross realming(5 minute delay to play your character on another realm )

DodgeIt · 2012-06-28, 07:40 AM

For me, it was the players.
I started on NC, and got into an outfit (FightClub) straight away. I'm still there with them after 9 years, playing various games.

There was only one time that all 3 factions came together and it wasnt so much faction rivalry.
That was when we turned to Server rivalry.

From Werner, we always poked fun at the other server on the forums, and they did it back.

fvdham · 2012-06-28, 10:30 AM

There begin Home Continents helped.
I was on Amerish, defending like the last Vanu base on the last Vanu continent.
The Vanu Home Continent.
Retreat was not option.
You are out of ammo. Enemy tanks are incoming.
You use your virtual finger nails to try to take out the enemy tanks,
hurling your body against the tanks to try and slow them down.