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Old 2012-07-11, 06:13 AM   [Ignore Me] #1
greenberetdelta
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TTK?


What is time to kill?
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Old 2012-07-11, 06:18 AM   [Ignore Me] #2
wOOtbEEr
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Re: TTK?


1. How long it takes to kill someone. In PS1 you would have to unload a whole clip with some weapons before your target went down. Other games have instant death flying out of every barrel.

2. Google is your friend
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Old 2012-07-11, 06:50 AM   [Ignore Me] #3
Artimus
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Just right
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Old 2012-07-11, 06:57 AM   [Ignore Me] #4
Jomo
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Re: TTK?


Google doesn't even have to be your friend. The forum automatically links TTK to the wiki with an explanation
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Old 2012-07-11, 07:09 AM   [Ignore Me] #5
greenberetdelta
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Re: TTK?


Originally Posted by Jomo View Post
Google doesn't even have to be your friend. The forum automatically links TTK to the wiki with an explanation
i did read it before the thread but the def still left me wanting
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Old 2012-07-11, 11:28 AM   [Ignore Me] #6
Jomo
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Re: TTK?


I'll give you everything you could ever want
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Old 2012-07-11, 09:32 PM   [Ignore Me] #7
Aberdash
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Re: TTK?


Originally Posted by greenberetdelta View Post
i did read it before the thread but the def still left me wanting
The wiki tells you what it means. What else is there to know?
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Old 2012-07-11, 10:19 PM   [Ignore Me] #8
Ratstomper
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Re: TTK?


Are you asking specifically what the average TTK is?
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Old 2012-07-11, 10:25 PM   [Ignore Me] #9
vVRedOctoberVv
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Re: TTK?


@Ratstomper

I'm pretty sure he meant the definition of the term. Somehow, he looked up the definition, but was still confused as to its definition ))))
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Old 2012-07-11, 10:27 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
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Re: TTK?


Originally Posted by vVRedOctoberVv View Post
@Ratstomper

I'm pretty sure he meant the definition of the term. Somehow, he looked up the definition, but was still confused as to its definition ))))
I just wanted to make sure we aren't misunderstanding him...
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Old 2012-07-11, 11:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #11
TAA
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Re: TTK?


Originally Posted by greenberetdelta View Post
What is time to kill?
As wOOtbEEr mentioned, TTK is a measure of how long it takes to kill a target with a weapon. It can be discussed in quantitative terms (ie. it takes 0.5 seconds to kill a target that is not wearing additional armor with this weapon, but it takes 0.6 seconds with this other weapon). Most often it is discussed in qualitative terms (eg. I think the TTK is too short).

I explain in this post why I think TTK matters. Quote below:


Originally Posted by TAA View Post
My views are these:
  • I believe that games with longer TTK favor different sets of skills to games with shorter TTK.
  • Games with longer TTK are more rewarding to the individual skill of players.* It rewards players who are able to make headshots quickly and accurately. It makes it safer for players to cross open ground that is being covered by snipers, and safer for players to charge around a corner that is being guarded by the enemy. It is safer to do these things because less players are able to make the accurate headshots required to quickly put another player down. This promotes more aggressive play, where aggressiveness is defined as players being more willing to cross open ground or charge into guarded areas.
  • Games with shorter TTK are more rewarding to teamwork.* If an entire squad can be gunned down by one person with a single assault rifle clip, then it is imperative that players move together in a more coordinated fashion. Infantry formations that minimize friendly fire and maximize arcs of fire on the enemy become more important. Crossing open ground that is covered by snipers requires assistance of cover (eg. smoke or friendly armor), or flanking maneuvers to take out entrenched enemy. Entering a room that is guarded by enemy requires techniques such as coordinated entry by a squad via multiple access points, or the use of grenades prior to entry.
  • Games that have a TTK that is too low or too high are both frustrating to beginning players. If the TTK is too low the beginning player will get more kills, but they will be too hesitant to move into more dangerous areas lest they immediately die. If the TTK is too high then the beginning player will hardly ever win any close encounters, and will get frustrated when they empty half a clip or more into an enemy only to have them turn around and kill them.

* Note that high TTK also rewards smart play and team work, and low TTK also rewards individual skill - its just that in my view the sets of skills that are favored the most are different in both types of games.
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Old 2012-07-12, 12:17 AM   [Ignore Me] #12
Sirisian
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Re: TTK?


I have my own definition on my site here. In summary though I find a good way to look at TTK is:
TTK is a function of how many choices a player should be able to make at any given time in a game
If you think about that in terms of a situation it'll make sense.

These two lines do not support one another:
Originally Posted by TAA View Post
Games with shorter TTK are more rewarding to teamwork.
Originally Posted by TAA View Post
If an entire squad can be gunned down by one person with a single assault rifle clip, then it is imperative that players move together in a more coordinated fashion.
A squad is 10 people. If one person could gun down a whole squad you're essentially at the lowest possible TTK where spray and pray would be effective. This is outside of the area I would say that teamwork is necessary. In fact staying as far away from your squad-mates so you don't get killed moving in a group would be better. A low TTK where a single player is killing more than say 2 people without reloading is detrimental to any form of teamwork. With a high TTK as you mentioned the expected behavior of teamwork is two players are guarding a door (as in the example on my site) and they would easily kill a player running into the room. However, with a high TTK that player could retreat with some damage and throw a grenade inside. If he had skill he could damage both players and go in for the kill. Or throw a smoke grenade in, turn on his thermal vision, and get the kills. Basically as you said requiring an extra level of skill. A low TTK is a very difficult gameplay mechanic to argue for when you want both individual skill and teamwork. You get both with a relatively high TTK.

Last edited by Sirisian; 2012-07-12 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 2012-07-12, 12:24 AM   [Ignore Me] #13
greenberetdelta
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Re: TTK?


I probably should i said that i got the answer, so no need to keep this thread alive thanks though guys
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Old 2012-07-12, 02:56 AM   [Ignore Me] #14
TAA
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Re: TTK?


Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
A squad is 10 people. If one person could gun down a whole squad you're essentially at the lowest possible TTK where spray and pray would be effective. This is outside of the area I would say that teamwork is necessary. In fact staying as far away from your squad-mates so you don't get killed moving in a group would be better. A low TTK where a single player is killing more than say 2 people without reloading is detrimental to any form of teamwork. With a high TTK as you mentioned the expected behavior of teamwork is two players are guarding a door (as in the example on my site) and they would easily kill a player running into the room. However, with a high TTK that player could retreat with some damage and throw a grenade inside. If he had skill he could damage both players and go in for the kill. Or throw a smoke grenade in, turn on his thermal vision, and get the kills. Basically as you said requiring an extra level of skill. A low TTK is a very difficult gameplay mechanic to argue for when you want both individual skill and teamwork. You get both with a relatively high TTK.


I think we have very different opinions on the matter. You see, I dont consider focus-firing to be the pinnacle of teamwork. Look at your very own example:
  • Two guys guarding a room.
  • One enemy attempts to walk in through the door.
  • In a low TTK game: the enemy gets killed by either defendant. You say this means there is no skill involved.
  • In a high TTK game: the enemy gets shot, doesnt die, and has time to retreat back out of the room. The only ways for a defendant to kill that enemy are: (a) get a headshot, or (b) focus fire him with his buddy.
  • Given these two possibilities you suggest that it is obvious that games are better with a high TTK. It promotes both skill and teamwork.

I maintain that you are coming from a very limited perspective of what teamwork is. Focus firing is by far the most basic method of teamwork. It is simple maths: in a 2vs2 fight, if 2 people gang up on one of their 2 opponents the match will quickly become 2vs1. Put another way:
  1. Imagine a 2vs2 fight. Players a+b vs players c+d.
  2. If each player has 100 health, and each player can output 10 damage per second, then it takes one player 10 seconds to kill one other player.
  3. If players a/b focus fire on player c before killing player d, then they will win the fight. Why? Read on.
  4. Lets say both pairs of players start firing simultaneously. Players a/b fire at player c only. Player c will die in 5 seconds, then player d will die after the next 5 seconds.
  5. On the other side lets say that player c fires only at player a, and player d fires only at player b. After five seconds player a is on 50 health, player b is on 50 health, and player c is dead (killed by the focus fire).
  6. In the next five seconds player d (the only one left on the second team) can only deal out 50 damage. He can only kill either a or b (both are on 50 health), but he cannot kill both. Players a/b will ALWAYS win the fight if they focus fire.

Every tank driver who is worth anything knows how to do this. You dont even have to communicate. You just fire at whoever your buddy is firing. I dont even dignify this with the label teamwork as its just such a basic principle in any game.


Take the video below: If low TTK removes the need for teamwork, then why are these guys here even bothering? Shouldnt they just be charging at the enemy?




Let me reiterate what my point of view is.
  • I think that both high and low TTK are matters of preference, but that if the TTK is either too low or too high that the game becomes a less satisfying experience for beginning players.
  • I believe that both high and low TTK games reward skill and teamwork, and that a player is rewarded for using skill or teamwork to slightly different extents in each.
  • I believe that the higher the TTK, the more individual skill is favored in that headshots or hitting weak points becomes more necessary.
  • I believe that the lower the TTK, the more that working together as a team becomes necessary. Not because they will prevent you from dying, but because you will die and because you cant win alone.
  • I believe that if you find a happy medium not only is the game great for beginning players, but that both skill and teamwork requirements are balanced.
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Old 2012-07-12, 04:47 AM   [Ignore Me] #15
Accuser
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Re: TTK?


Originally Posted by TAA View Post
Let me reiterate what my point of view is.
  • I think that both high and low TTK are matters of preference, but that if the TTK is either too low or too high that the game becomes a less satisfying experience for beginning players.
  • I believe that both high and low TTK games reward skill and teamwork, and that a player is rewarded for using skill or teamwork to slightly different extents in each.
  • I believe that the higher the TTK, the more individual skill is favored in that headshots or hitting weak points becomes more necessary.
  • I believe that the lower the TTK, the more that working together as a team becomes necessary. Not because they will prevent you from dying, but because you will die and because you cant win alone.
  • I believe that if you find a happy medium not only is the game great for beginning players, but that both skill and teamwork requirements are balanced.
Very true.
PS1's high TTK rewarded some forms of teamwork, but made it extremely difficult for an individual to accomplish anything. Your team is getting ready to push down an enemy-held hallway and you're going first? Sucks to be you, because no matter how skilled you are, you're going to die and you won't kill anything.

But low TTK can reward teamwork as well. A group of soldiers all chasing down one enemy or aiming at one target will be easily flanked and wiped out by a smaller enemy force. If the former group had coordinated zones of fire, the latter may have only taken down one or two troops before being spotted and neutralized. With a high TTK, the larger group would need no such coordination, since the smaller group simply wouldn't be able to kill fast enough to overcome the enemy hitpoints, even with the element of surprise.

It all comes down to personal preference. Low TTK rewards reaction time and situational awareness, high TTK rewards accuracy and coordinated fire. Both have elements of individual skill and teamplay, just in different ways.

With that said (and keeping in mind the PS1 example above) I STRONGLY prefer low TTK both for individual and teamplay reasons.
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