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Old 2012-03-16, 07:56 AM   [Ignore Me] #631
Erendil
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Re: Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2


Originally Posted by Mezorin View Post
Remember, this isn't PlanetSide 1, and we haven't seen the Lightning yet. There is no arbitrary reason that balance wise a one man MBT has to be "better" than a Lightning anymore than a Heavy Assault troop must be "better" than a light assault on the ground. The developers have made it clear they want each vehicle to have its own set of strengths and roles, so they wouldn't want the Lightning to be the thing you buy when you are slumming it or need AA, but an actual viable unit that fits into the ecosystem of the game.

If the Lightning tanks have similar auto cannon armaments to an LAV-25 or a BTR-90 they will be very lethal infantry and MAX hunters that can still put the hurt on regular tanks. The fact that a Lightning will be bloody quick too will make it also great for chasing down ATVs, Sunderers, and other vehicles an MBT would be left in the dust by.

Lightnings can also react to stuff on the ground a lot quicker than MBTs can, and will be great for skirmishing. Remember, you need to control much more of the map in PS2 than in the original to win, and part of that is being able to react fast with vehicle/troop assets. A small group of lightnings (with varied load outs) can patrol friendly territory along a front line looking for enemies trying to sneak through, or areas where an enemy might be weak for an attack.

EDIT: Woot, nice to see fellow Lightning tank drivers in the forum!

Wolf pack represent!

I hear ya brah. A solo MBT should not be a clearly "better" combat vehicle than the Lightning. The two should have different and distinct combat roles, yes, (with some overlap) but also have at least a somewhat similar level of desirability.

And you have a great point about the extended front lines in PS2. Gone are the days of only having one or two bases to attack. There's going to be a lot more avenues of conquest available to our enemies, so patrols and quick response reactionary forces will be even more vital than in PS1 in stopping enemy incursions along the front lines.

Obviously ES Fighters will of course play a vital role in this as well, but a Lightning wolf pack arriving on the scene right behind the ESF's, a few decked out with AA, could be quite useful in repelling an enemy insertion before they can secure the area and establish a solid FOB deep within friendly territory.

I'd also luv to see them used as both forward scouts and u-boats. So certs for enhanced detection and intel gathering ability, stealth, silent operations and adaptive camo would all be wonderful unlocks/sidegrades for the Lightning that I think would beautifully fit a small, fast moving solo tank quite well.

However.... I don't want to derail this thread too much.... I guess the main point is that the Lightning can and should be made into an effective solo tank in its own right. And as such, if someone wants to drive a tank solo, the Lightning is already available so there's no real intrinsic need per se to give MBT's solo ability as well.


There are also several more points which others have already mentioned that go against giving the driver the main cannon:
  • Most people suck at simultaneous driving and gunning and would be better drivers if they didn't have to use the main cannon
  • The mainly defensive role of the secondary gunner (as asserted by Brewko on the SOE Forums) is a better fit for the driver whose primary purpose should be tank survival
  • One 2-man MBT appears to be inferior to two solo MBTs or one solo MBT and a Lightning
  • Some people hate simultaneously gunning and driving and want to only drive a tank, but they have no option to do so in PS2.
  • People are inherently self-serving and generally don't like playing "second fiddle" in a tank by getting stuck with the weaker, defensive weapon while the driver gets the big boomstick.


In light of all of this I'm of the opinion that there should be at minimum the option to hand the main cannon off to a gunner, or swap the primary and secondary weapons around. And of course, my sig should tell you how I think the Mag's main cannon should be modded to allow its handoff to a gunner since it's still not clear how maneuverable it is (although again, that flying Mag in the GDC footage certain does make one contemplate other possibilities..... )


Originally Posted by Coreldan View Post
BTW, has it been confirmed that Lightning is still a 1 player tank? They changed they are changing it quite radically, but I understood that would remain?

Yes, they confirmed in the vehicle webcast that the Lightning is purely a 1-man tank.
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Last edited by Erendil; 2012-03-16 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 2012-03-17, 01:39 PM   [Ignore Me] #632
Raka Maru
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Erendil, You sir have brought back my memory of the love for my Lightning.

I drove this a lot, but often resented it, but no longer...
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Old 2012-03-30, 03:26 PM   [Ignore Me] #633
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Re: Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2


"Planetside 2 is still in Alpha so everything is subject to change." One thing to change is to let the driver be able to just dive and not have to deal with trying to gun at the same time. It sucks trying to do both at the same time.
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Old 2012-03-30, 03:32 PM   [Ignore Me] #634
sylphaen
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Re: Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2


Even Cthulhu would have nightmares from this thread.
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Old 2012-03-30, 03:41 PM   [Ignore Me] #635
basti
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Re: Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2


Not going to close this, its far from a necro. And im quite happy Vanir used the search function instead of just creating a new thread.
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Old 2012-03-30, 04:50 PM   [Ignore Me] #636
Owalpo
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Re: Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2


They should keep it how it is. If they make it so you need a second person for gunner then it is going to be a lot harder for new players, casuals and loners who hate aircraft and don't feel like sitting in a bus and will make them not like the game at all. Or even worse dozens of tanks with no gunners ramming each other.

Then new players would need to buy mics, so they can communicate with their gunner or driver. Some of you hardcore guys may never have experienced this, but trust me I have witnessed this before and something like this is a deal breaker. Unless of course if you don't care that your gunner is looking at a soldier behind you when five tanks are in front and you are yelling in your head because you have no mic. Driving a warthog in Halo with no mic jeez...

Ever fill out a form or sign up thing online and then it says you have to fill out a survey to continue? You say to yourself "Well I'm done here, not wasting my time." Kind of the same thing with two people for a tank.

New player sees the tank and he can't shoot, "Well I'm done here!"
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Old 2012-03-30, 04:55 PM   [Ignore Me] #637
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Re: Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2


Surely someone said it before already, why not let the driver decide who controls the gun? Have the driver control the gun, if he wants to control the gun and drive, the second person in the car operates the secondary gun, and if not, the second person gets the option between the secondary gun and the primary gun.
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Old 2012-03-30, 06:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #638
Vanir
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Re: Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2


Originally Posted by Arius View Post
Surely someone said it before already, why not let the driver decide who controls the gun? Have the driver control the gun, if he wants to control the gun and drive, the second person in the car operates the secondary gun, and if not, the second person gets the option between the secondary gun and the primary gun.
Yes, this.
Why not make it optional for the driver to choose to whether to control one or none of the guns on the tank? Put it on the skill tree upgrade or something. For example when I'm deciding my load out for my tank, on the load out screen why not have tags to check off on whether I want to control the main gun or have a seperate gunner control the main gun (which would then open up a gunner spot on the tank for the main gun) and another check box for the secondary gun. For a maximum of a 3 man tank.
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Old 2012-03-31, 02:14 AM   [Ignore Me] #639
Talek Krell
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Re: Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2


Originally Posted by Owalpo View Post
They should keep it how it is. If they make it so you need a second person for gunner then it is going to be a lot harder for new players, casuals and loners who hate aircraft and don't feel like sitting in a bus and will make them not like the game at all.
The Lightning already exists to cater to this group, and is better suited to doing so. No secondary crew required and every point you spend goes to your own use.

Originally Posted by Owalpo View Post
Or even worse dozens of tanks with no gunners ramming each other.
Hypothetically possible, but the first game didn't have this problem.

Originally Posted by Arius View Post
Surely someone said it before already, why not let the driver decide who controls the gun?
It has, but there's some balance concerns with it. Also the Magrider's cannon is a spinal mount, it can only fire in the direction the tank is facing. Making it work as a gunner weapon would probably require some fundamental changes to the tank.
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Old 2012-03-31, 05:08 AM   [Ignore Me] #640
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Re: Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2


Originally Posted by Talek Krell View Post
It has, but there's some balance concerns with it. Also the Magrider's cannon is a spinal mount, it can only fire in the direction the tank is facing. Making it work as a gunner weapon would probably require some fundamental changes to the tank.
The implications of the magrider's fixed-forward main gun combined with driver gunning has only slowly dawned on me. It reminds me of the early days of World War 2 when the French had the world's strongest mounted tank gun (in the Char-B if memory serves), BUT it was fixed forward in the hull. When the Germans crashed the party in their much weaker-gunned but more mobile Panzers they just ran rings round the Char B and annihilated them.

Look at this picture and weep, if it is the new magrider:
http://i.imgur.com/Z8BnH.jpg

Apologies to Erendil for not realising earlier the significance of his signature picture!

If this is what driver gunner means for the Vanu, there are going to be a LOT of unhappy magrider drivers out there.

I've already mentioned that I am happy about driver/gunning based on playing that way in BFBC2, but there SHOULD be an option for the driver to relinquish the main gun if so desired AND the magrider must be modded so that its main gun can rotate, otherwise it will be next to useless - it was hard enough to get kills with the old PPA with its jittery aim on uneven surfaces, ffs.
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Old 2012-03-31, 07:00 AM   [Ignore Me] #641
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Re: Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2


The Magrider indeed will be used as a Char B or M3 Lee/Grant, just with strafing. Both of those were semi-tank destroyers as their heavies firepower came from a fixed forward mounted gun.



The PS2 Magrider always was a bit of a sniper vehicle due to that, close quarters it's going to get completely pulverized as it was in PS1 as it wouldn't be able to deliver its high damage as effective as other tanks and would be made more stationary.

The only advantage it has to compensate is the ability to circle strafe, but it and certainly not its strafe speed seemed that fast in the footage we've seen so far, so I wonder if it'll be enough. Either way they will be very vulnerable to flanking again.


To me, I wouldn't mind the Magrider being turned into a TD if the other factions also get a TD and the VS get a new main tank.

Last edited by Figment; 2012-03-31 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 2012-03-31, 07:47 AM   [Ignore Me] #642
Amdefor
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Re: Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2


I think giving the driver the big gun is a good idea, but I only wish they’d allow the driver to pass off the main gun to a gunner if he has one. I love driving tanks in PS1 but can’t hit the broad side of a barn to save my life. If they don’t allow players like me to pass off the main gun, they’ve taken tanks completely out of the game for me.
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Old 2012-03-31, 11:13 AM   [Ignore Me] #643
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Re: Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2


There were good reasons they made it the way they did and with the fixed gun on the magrider it's likely there will be no option to give the control to a second player on any of the faction specific tanks as that would lead to imbalances in gameplay; and this change is likely permanent.

The only other option I see that would work is to add a common pool heavy tank or artillery vehicle that does have driver only and gunner only seats, a total of three seats would be nice.

and first post.
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Old 2012-03-31, 11:57 AM   [Ignore Me] #644
Raka Maru
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Originally Posted by Talek Krell View Post
The Lightning already exists to cater to this group, and is better suited to doing so. No secondary crew required and every point you spend goes to your own use.
I have been convinced of the benefits of the lightning and am looking forward to soloing that again.

Originally Posted by Talek Krell View Post
It has, but there's some balance concerns with it. Also the Magrider's cannon is a spinal mount, it can only fire in the direction the tank is facing. Making it work as a gunner weapon would probably require some fundamental changes to the tank.
Would still like to see the options of driver/gunner seat customization on the MBT for TR and NC even if it means the VS driver cannot release his main cannon to a gunner.

Staffing, hovering, circle staffing, and perhaps some other magic could still make this balanced and unique as an ES vehicle. Maybe give it a emp or radar... Something to balance it.
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Old 2012-03-31, 01:20 PM   [Ignore Me] #645
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Re: Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2


I don't particularly mind either way, with the side-grades and all I can see the appeal of being able to take full advantage of these things yourself rather than delegate your way of playing onto someone who might play completely differently, maybe you don't want the guy with terrible aim to shoot the cannon with the 8 second reload timer.
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