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Old 2013-07-27, 12:34 AM   [Ignore Me] #1
Aduras Warhound
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Question factions not unique enough?


Ok (I think) that we can all agree that the factions aren't unique enough.
Each faction was supposed to have a feature that made each faction unique
The TR was supposed to have a high fire rate lots of ammo and fast vehicles
The NC was supposed to have hard hitting weapons, slow fire rates and slow vehicles (also hard hitting and durable)
The VS was supposed to be the middle ground with Good accuracy, good fire rates and average vehicles (armor and weapon wise)

What they did right was give each faction very unique starter weapons that personified each faction Like the NC gauss SAW or the TR Carv.

After that I have no idea what they were thinking!
The slow firing NC got the fastest shooting gun in the whole game
The only gun in the TR HA class that shoots faster than the carv is the minigun and even then its only by 50 RPM! (they did the SMG's right though)

They then proceeded to give each faction rip offs of the other factions guns but weaker than before.

Personally I just want them to come up with some weapons that TRULY! match each factions traits.
Give the TR some weapons with low damage high fire rates (900+) and huge mags (vary on class)
The NC could use more weapons like the SAW that have a ROF of 500 but 200 damage. They could even drop the ROF down to 400 and make it an automatic sniper but absolute garbage in close quarters.

now if you notice I haven't put much on the VS in here but that's because my experience with them is very limited soo feel free to throw is some of your ideas of TRUE! VS weapons (the best I have heard is very long damage drops) let me know plz
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Old 2013-07-27, 01:59 AM   [Ignore Me] #2
Sirisian
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Re: factions not unique enough?


Originally Posted by Aduras Warhound View Post
Ok (I think) that we can all agree that the factions aren't unique enough.
Most people realize that asymmetrical balance isn't feasible in an FPS game. It's not necessarily hard to understand why. We can use the information you provided.

Originally Posted by Aduras Warhound View Post
The TR was supposed to have a high fire rate lots of ammo and fast vehicles
The NC was supposed to have hard hitting weapons, slow fire rates and slow vehicles (also hard hitting and durable)
The VS was supposed to be the middle ground with Good accuracy, good fire rates and average vehicles (armor and weapon wise)
Slow fire rates that are hard hitting end up being not forgiving when missing. We have good examples of this in the game. Trying to balance the G30 Vulcan minigun versus the E540 Halberd. That is identical DPS can't be used to balance. At that point the methods used to balance either configuration spirals into complexity.

With that said varying cosmetics and particles are far more important to making the game have varied factions.

This topic has been discussed a lot, but it has some very interesting repercussions. In order to hide the issues with asymmetrical designs the designers either use a high TTK or a low TTK. This is more obvious if you've played Planetside 1. It tried to use a high TTK to attempt to hide varied weapons and allow their DPS to average out. PS2 has chosen to lower the TTK to make the imbalance less obvious. Extremes are really good at helping the system seem feasible.

edit: I can go into more detail also why what you listed is going in a bad direction:
Originally Posted by Aduras Warhound View Post
The NC could use more weapons like the SAW that have a ROF of 500 but 200 damage. They could even drop the ROF down to 400 and make it an automatic sniper but absolute garbage in close quarters.
As more weapons are added there begins to be a role overlap. What you described would begin to role overlap with the battle rifles which are low ROF, high damage semi-automatics.

Last edited by Sirisian; 2013-07-27 at 02:05 AM.
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Old 2013-07-27, 05:51 AM   [Ignore Me] #3
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Re: factions not unique enough?


See, I'm ok with each empire having an version of the other's weapons. I just want them to look and sound unique to that empire. Asymmetry doesn't work well in FPS games. My biggest problem is with NS weapons and vehicles. They can have the exact same stats and unlock their counter-parts faction wide, but I would like to see 3 versions that look and sound different. The NS PDW should have had 3 different models for the different empires, even though they would act the exact same.
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Old 2013-07-27, 06:03 AM   [Ignore Me] #4
Canaris
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Re: factions not unique enough?


Originally Posted by Aduras Warhound View Post
Ok (I think) that we can all agree that the factions aren't unique enough.
No I don't agree with that assement, I'm fine with them sacrificing some of the faction traits in the name of balance, heck the vast majority of peoples complaints has to do with inbalance between the factions and the grass being greener on the other sides. How else do you expect them to sort that out.

I'm still a TR and everything about my equipment says the same.

Though I do have to draw a the line at NS armour systems, armour should remain faction specific.
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Last edited by Canaris; 2013-07-27 at 06:04 AM.
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Old 2013-07-27, 11:48 AM   [Ignore Me] #5
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Re: factions not unique enough?


I think they still maintain magazine size for the TR, velocity for the NC, and accuracy for the VS. Which seems diverse enough to be fun, yet fair enough to balance, in my opinion.
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Old 2013-07-27, 12:44 PM   [Ignore Me] #6
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Re: factions not unique enough?


Originally Posted by Aduras Warhound View Post
The NC could use more weapons like the SAW that have a ROF of 500 but 200 damage. They could even drop the ROF down to 400 and make it an automatic sniper but absolute garbage in close quarters.
NC cap their unique roles pretty well, with AC-X11, Gauss SAW, and Reaper DMR.

I think that there is more room for unique-ness between the factions, but not in their traditional weapons. The areas where uniqueness is profitable is already being profited on: AV weapons, tanks, MAX units, ESHA weapons. For unique-ness sake, different factions should be getting things like Bio-gel gun, Flak cannon, ELF Whip and so on. Things with unique animations and different functions in an equivalent role.
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Old 2013-07-27, 06:29 PM   [Ignore Me] #7
Aduras Warhound
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Re: factions not unique enough?


I think ATreatToYOu is going in the right direction here with not having the uniqueness being in the traditional roles.

The different factions should get completely different weapons that only that faction can have.
the TR have a minigun which no one can have
The VS could get a weapon that acts like a beam rifle from halo (constant stream of plasma)
I don't know what the NC could get but the idea is there, weapons unique to each faction
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Old 2013-07-27, 06:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #8
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Re: factions not unique enough?


SRRY its AThreatToYou not ATreatToYou
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Old 2013-07-27, 07:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #9
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Re: factions not unique enough?


Originally Posted by Aduras Warhound View Post
I think ATreatToYOu is going in the right direction here with not having the uniqueness being in the traditional roles.

The different factions should get completely different weapons that only that faction can have.
the TR have a minigun which no one can have
The VS could get a weapon that acts like a beam rifle from halo (constant stream of plasma)
I don't know what the NC could get but the idea is there, weapons unique to each faction
I don't think that's quite what he meant. Those are different weapon roles, not different weapons for the same role.
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Old 2013-07-27, 09:37 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
Ghoest9
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Re: factions not unique enough?


The devs tried a fair degree of asymmetry at the start - it really didnt work well.

The more alike they have made the factions weapons the more fun to actually play the game has become.
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Old 2013-07-27, 11:47 PM   [Ignore Me] #11
Varsam
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Re: factions not unique enough?


Originally Posted by Sirisian View Post
Most people realize that asymmetrical balance isn't feasible in an FPS game. It's not necessarily hard to understand why. We can use the information you provided.


Slow fire rates that are hard hitting end up being not forgiving when missing. We have good examples of this in the game. Trying to balance the G30 Vulcan minigun versus the E540 Halberd. That is identical DPS can't be used to balance. At that point the methods used to balance either configuration spirals into complexity.

With that said varying cosmetics and particles are far more important to making the game have varied factions.

This topic has been discussed a lot, but it has some very interesting repercussions. In order to hide the issues with asymmetrical designs the designers either use a high TTK or a low TTK. This is more obvious if you've played Planetside 1. It tried to use a high TTK to attempt to hide varied weapons and allow their DPS to average out. PS2 has chosen to lower the TTK to make the imbalance less obvious. Extremes are really good at helping the system seem feasible.

edit: I can go into more detail also why what you listed is going in a bad direction:

As more weapons are added there begins to be a role overlap. What you described would begin to role overlap with the battle rifles which are low ROF, high damage semi-automatics.
This is pretty spot on.
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Old 2013-07-29, 07:17 AM   [Ignore Me] #12
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Re: factions not unique enough?


I played planetside 1 when it came out, and well into core combat, then took a break, came back a bit when BFRs were balanced a bit, and really, really looked forward to PS2. I played beta, went premium asap, and went on the month to month plan because i really, really wanted to support PS2. I wanted it to have all the aspects of PS1, and build on it with everything PS2 had to offer.

What Aduras Warhound said rings true with me. at the same time I understand that PS2 is not PS1, and they cant have a huge weapon variety and also balance the game easily. Still, I miss the days when we had just a few weapons, and I would meet up with some TR scum, and we would trade Gauss for Cyclers, and throw em in our lockers, and my buddies always wondered where I got my stockpile.

Really, the few things some of us want are so simple, its kinda shitty they are not in the game. I want some real, honest knifeplay. I would love for my knife to be a toggle thing, not a quick knife. I would love to hear that psychopath terran player revving his chain blade, or the angry humm of a vanu force knife. I would love to see knife work with cloak as it would only momentarily break the field.

I would love to see NC's weapons get a bit more "gaussy" and the TR's to get a bit faster, and the VS to get weirder. I would love to run out of ammo, and worry as I pull out my pistol, and hope to find a backpack of some enemy.

At the same time I know that ps2's pacing is much faster.

I would love to drive an ANT again, and in ps2 it could be used to fuel up sunderers as nanites are still part of a story right? But Its not that kind of game.

I've talked to a lot of my friends, and We all came to the same conclusion. What is wanted, is not really what PS2 is. Its sad for me, but hey, I had my time, and I had my fun. I hope that someone from the dev team takes a look at this and throws some thought to it, because I am getting ready to call it a day with planetside. We had a good run, but have grown apart, and I wish the absolute best for the dev team, and the community. I know there will be more players. Still, I hope the coming patches can just infuse a bit of that strange magic from the first game, its really just the small features that make it.
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Old 2013-07-29, 01:44 PM   [Ignore Me] #13
maradine
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Re: factions not unique enough?


I think asymmetric balance is an achievable goal for any game genre, but it requires a few things to be successful:
  • A clear, well-communicated design vision
  • A defined win condition that can be statistically tracked and balanced against
  • A willingness to tell your community to harden the fuck up when you know you're on the right side of 1 and 2

I don't think I got any of those things in my stocking this year. Santa's a bitch.
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Old 2013-07-29, 01:58 PM   [Ignore Me] #14
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Re: factions not unique enough?


I'm all for unique empire weapons.

At the same time I think most of the "Primary" guns - the carbines, ARs, LMGs ect. - should be roughly within some parameters with empire guns clustering around the empire traits without adhering absolutely to them. But with a couple unique options (which do exist...except I feel the VS gets a bit shafted there)

NC guns are nearly all a damage-tier (or more!) above the others.
TR guns are mostly higher ROF than the others.
The VS are mostly in-between and you have to introduce a third axis then...no drop leaves something to be desired.
Obviously there are some overlaps.

A good example of the "unique"-type weapons is in the AR category, with the "long range" guns.
The NC have the Reaper DMR with 200 damage and a small magazine.
The TR have the Saber which is super-accurate burst fire.
No other ARs feel like those guns.
...then the VS get the Corvus, which is just a damage tier bump and ROF hit but otherwise not very different from anything (though it is one of my favorites).

It'd be nice to have more of that kind of thing. But it'd be nice for the VS to have something more "unique" than "an average of NC/TR traits"
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Old 2013-07-29, 02:09 PM   [Ignore Me] #15
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Re: factions not unique enough?


Originally Posted by Rbstr View Post
I'm all for unique empire weapons.

At the same time I think most of the "Primary" guns - the carbines, ARs, LMGs ect. - should be roughly within some parameters with empire guns clustering around the empire traits without adhering absolutely to them. But with a couple unique options (which do exist...except I feel the VS gets a bit shafted there)

NC guns are nearly all a damage-tier (or more!) above the others.
TR guns are mostly higher ROF than the others.
The VS are mostly in-between and you have to introduce a third axis then...no drop leaves something to be desired.
Obviously there are some overlaps.

A good example of the "unique"-type weapons is in the AR category, with the "long range" guns.
The NC have the Reaper DMR with 200 damage and a small magazine.
The TR have the Saber which is super-accurate burst fire.
No other ARs feel like those guns.
...then the VS get the Corvus, which is just a damage tier bump and ROF hit but otherwise not very different from anything (though it is one of my favorites).

It'd be nice to have more of that kind of thing. But it'd be nice for the VS to have something more "unique" than "an average of NC/TR traits"
VS also tend to have the fastest reload times, but most people don't seem to care for some reason.
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