Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2 - Page 9

Captain1nsaneo · 2011-09-17, 07:40 AM

Before I go into a thread relevant wall of text:

Originally Posted by Brusi

mmmmmmm, baneblades. When I first heard we were getting heavy tanks (BFRs) this was what I hoped we were getting. Lots of guns, lots of gunners, lots of armor, and no move speed. The thought we might get one of these as a HBT makes me shiver.

First, thank you for reading these threads. Thank you for caring about the game. But why are you here? Why do you still like this very old game? Other games are prettier, faster, better balanced, and some even have similar numbers of players. No, I bet that you are like me and there is a very different reason you are here. Community. We aren't addicted to min/maxing, leveling up skills, or mining gold. We may enjoy them for sure, but they aren't our meat and bread. We want to relive those sleepless nights were we fought shoulder to shoulder with our friends.

How do we get that community? It's by finding strangers and turning them into acquaintances and then into friends and family. This change is not quickly made and requires close and regular contact. It requires trust and time. Planetside fosters this in its heavy focus on teamwork. Quick example of the difference, name me 5 people from a server based fps you've played. Now name me 5 from Planetside. Which set of names came faster?

There's been arguments about how single driver/gunner vehicles are bad or good and I could add my own voice as a veteran driver and justify why I think the liberator as it stands now is utterly perfect but I don't think that's the real problem. The problem is a philosophical one which is putting greater focus on the individual and infantry.

Obviously the class system seems to argue against this as it would take a lot of teamwork for a squad with MAXs, medics, light infantry, and grunts to be effective. However, infantry fights tend to be madcap and feats of heroism during them are hard to share. In a vehicle everyone shares the glory or defeat and as such they can revel together easily. Vehicles force people to work together or be ineffective on the field whereas in an infantry fight an individual can always be a threat.

What is effective is not always fun, what is fun is not always effective.

Kurtz · 2011-09-17, 01:50 PM

Just because we've been playing COD & BF while we waited for the next Planetside doesn't mean we want Planetside to be like those games.

If anything we've wanted DICE to be more like You guys.

The teamwork factor is what lead to the immersion and camaraderie that was Planetside. You needed to communicate between the driver and gunners (2 TR), you needed to communicate to your AA covering your tanks to stay close....THAT was planetside.

I understand that the tactics will be different without an AMS and maybe a slightly faster TTK and spawn to action...But don't eliminate teamwork, the need for good communication and the diversity of vehicles.

GTGD · 2011-09-17, 02:09 PM

While I agree that it didn't make sense for the person who invested cert points to get stuck driving around, giving the driver the main gun isn't a good solution.

Making the tanks paper-thin and have longer timers won't solve this, and will in fact just slow down gameplay (which is what has seemingly been the primary focus of PS2: faster action).

Things could go one of two ways:

1) Tanks are still powerful, and everyone certs them. The game turns into Vehicleside, where every battle features a short-lived vehicle battle outside which turns into an infantry fight in a base.

2) Tanks timers are too long and they are underpowered, nobody certs tanks.

sylphaen · 2011-09-18, 05:27 AM

1) Tanks are still powerful, and everyone certs them. [...]
2) Tanks [...] are underpowered, nobody certs tanks.

Yup, something that has a specific function and is not adequately good at it will simply not be used.

The question for tanks and other vehicles will thus be : what is their intended role in PS2 ? Will they do it well ?

dsi · 2011-09-19, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by Kurtz

Just because we've been playing COD & BF while we waited for the next Planetside doesn't mean we want Planetside to be like those games.

If anything we've wanted DICE to be more like You guys.

The teamwork factor is what lead to the immersion and camaraderie that was Planetside. You needed to communicate between the driver and gunners (2 TR), you needed to communicate to your AA covering your tanks to stay close....THAT was planetside.

I understand that the tactics will be different without an AMS and maybe a slightly faster TTK and spawn to action...But don't eliminate teamwork, the need for good communication and the diversity of vehicles.

Planetside is teamwork the video game, maybe you're communicating to focus a platoon's worth of cannon fire onto the enemy, or maybe you're communicating to escape enemy aircraft strafing you, or maybe you're communicating to split up enemy loot. Anything lowers the requirement for communication is a BAD THING, and one man tanks are quite possibly the most obvious thing to not do so far. (and if they've screwed this up you know they've screwed up other things too)

BorisBlade · 2011-09-19, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by dsi

Planetside is teamwork the video game, maybe you're communicating to focus a platoon's worth of cannon fire onto the enemy, or maybe you're communicating to escape enemy aircraft strafing you, or maybe you're communicating to split up enemy loot. Anything lowers the requirement for communication is a BAD THING, and one man tanks are quite possibly the most obvious thing to not do so far. (and if they've screwed this up you know they've screwed up other things too)

So very true, I try my hardest to tell myself how all these total changes of everything that made PS fun for me into something thats more like a BF game which I honestly dont wanna play, are somehow still gonna work. I was holding on to vehicle fights, thinking they cant and wont mess this up, its key to PS. The fun i have driving for my crews is fun as hell. The teamwork we use, esp in the 3-5 man vehicles, was the best and most memorable aspects of the game. PS and esp PS2 is a game with a crapload of players. You should be focusing on gettin those players together in vehicles, not giving each one their own version of a solo BFR/making everything a lightning.

I cert to buff my vehicle, i just want to be the driver only, i buff it so my crew will be able to kick as much ass as possible. I have the uber vehicle so it makes for the most fun and effectiveness when we get together. If someone wants to be a selfish killwhore then they should hop in a lightning or reaver. Leave all the other vehicles for those of us who play a team based game......as a team.

Azren · 2011-09-20, 02:00 AM

It is not really possible to drive and gun a tank at the same time. Looking at how the Lightings are doing is proof enough of that. Currently for the most time in game I'm driving a magrider around, which as you all know has a gun for the driver to use. In reality I often find myself not using the driver gun at all - for one part it is hard to use, but more importantly; getting pre-occupied with shooting down enemies is a sure way to get yourself killed in PS. You can not focus on a target and keep a good situational awareness.

I really hope that this "driver side gunnery" thing will only be an option you get with vehicle customisation, and not a default. Meaning that every tank will give a gun to the driver (just like the magrider does now), but the firepower of the driver gun and that of the real gunner are exchangeable (for example, 20% damage comes from driver and 80% from gunner by default, which can be changed to 80% driver 20% gunner if you want to)

Crator · 2011-09-20, 08:18 AM

That's cause lightnings aren't really meant for you to sit in one spot and focus on a target for a very long time.

FastAndFree · 2011-09-21, 04:17 AM

Yesterday I mentioned on our outfit's voip that drivers will control the main gun in PS2. Apparently most of our "tankers" did not yet hear this, and they... did not care for the idea.

Meaning that they almost lynched me

Azren · 2011-09-21, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Crator

That's cause lightnings aren't really meant for you to sit in one spot and focus on a target for a very long time.

and that is why 90% of the lightings I face end up hitting a tree and dieing. Bad game design at its best right there...

FastAndFree, I am hardly surprised at that. For me the fun in PS1 is either driving a tank or gunning for one, and now they want to take both of that away.

I do not care for one man armees. This the same concept as they had with BFRs, just in a smaller scale. Driver operated main gun cries for one man tanks.

I enjoy sitting behind the "wheel", doing my best to find a good fireing position for my friend sitting in the turret, calling targets, ect. All of that will be gone with this. What do we get instead? I will go and find a good fireing position for ME, killing whatevery I want ALONE. How is this team based gaming experience?

I hope at least the buggie remains as a dedicated driver, dedicated gunner vehicle, or this game will be a very short experience for me...

Goku · 2011-09-21, 08:23 AM

I hope the devs are reading this thread. Perhaps it will make them change their mind. This is changing the core of ps way too much when it comes to vehicles.

Baron · 2011-09-21, 08:36 AM

With the driver having access to the main gun, tanks will become more like artillery with "park and shoot" tactics instead of something more dynamic.

FastAndFree · 2011-09-21, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Baron

With the driver having access to the main gun, tanks will become more like artillery with "park and shoot" tactics instead of something more dynamic.

This is the line of thought that I agree with, why this is not a very good idea.

For the record I do not use tanks very often, but yesterday I just happened to gun a mag, and it took absolute focus to keep tracking my targets and maintain any semblance of awarness at least in the target's direction, as my driver was weaving through obstacles and going up and down hills. As mentioned above, the lightning is proof that it is nigh-impossible to shoot at something chasing you and not crash into obstacles. (Which, being an aircav pilot myself, works for me...)

Now about teamwork, I don't think that argument works at all.
Aircav are 1-man units. Does that mean they can't work in teams? No.
Not buying it? Then what about... Soldiers? Are soldiers one-man armies because they do not require a separate player for walking and aiming?

You will still be able to work as a team with tanks, only now the gun layout will be different, or you will have 2x as many tanks working together (and also be reaverbait)

Or maybe not, because SOE changed it's mind. You can always hope for that

TheRagingGerbil · 2011-09-21, 08:58 AM

I dont think this is going to be that big of a deal. Especially with the emphasis that the devs are putting on the secondary weapons. They always mention flak attachments.

This leads me to believe the tanks will be similar to those in BF2142. Hell a single shot up the tailpipe from an AVR and the tank was a fireworks show.

Azren · 2011-09-21, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by FastAndFree

Now about teamwork, I don't think that argument works at all.
Aircav are 1-man units. Does that mean they can't work in teams? No.
Not buying it? Then what about... Soldiers? Are soldiers one-man armies because they do not require a separate player for walking and aiming?

You will still be able to work as a team with tanks, only now the gun layout will be different, or you will have 2x as many tanks working together (and also be reaverbait)

Or maybe not, because SOE changed it's mind. You can always hope for that

I was talking about teamwork in terms of vehicle crew, thought that was obvious. I sure as hell won't put any time into tanks if I don't get to be the dedicated driver of it - still holding out some hope for buggies, if they get screwed up too, I'm done with this game.