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Old 2013-10-10, 06:13 AM   [Ignore Me] #1
Escroteitor
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My thoughs on ZOE


I think that the ZOE don't have enough drawbacks compared to other maxes special abilities.

The 20% reduction in armor change their 80% bullet damage reduction to a 60% damage reduction. That's fine, a powerful drawback.

In a normal way a max need 5 times more bullet to drop his health than a normal foot soldier (80% reduction). With ZOE a soldier need 2,5 times more bullets to drop a ZOE max.

The problem comes when this armor reduction doesn't affects rockets direct hits. A ZOE takes the exactly same damage from a rocket on both states, because a MAX doesn't have armor against direct hits.

And this is a not problem because rockets shouldn't one-shot maxes (because with a 20% increase in damage received the stock rocket launcher can overkill a MAX) 1700*1,2= 2040. The problems comes with the dodging ability the ZOE has.

That dodging ability prevents a death from decimators (2000 health per hit= one-shot maxes), while others maxes can't dodge the rocket (or have a lot of problems doing it) the ZOE can.

And this itself isn't a problem. The problem is combination of all of the above. Ironically the ZOE negates it owns drawbacks.

The ZOE actually can increase the survivability of a MAX, dodging make it hard to infantry to shoot them, so less bullets hits the MAX, therefor it nearly negates it drawback.

Also it can dodge rockets more easily, increasing it survivability.

Eventually we understand that the ZOE drawbacks are skill-based. A player can negate them by it owns skills. While other maxes can't. You can't prevent been anchored, you can't prevent not shooting with aegis up, but you can prevent the increased damage received by dodging.

The ZOE then has an increase of killing potential, and survivability. While the other maxes choose between one of the two. The zoe doesn't.

So my conclussion is that increasing their damage received is not actually a good design for the ZOE. It needs a non-controllable drawback.

Last edited by Escroteitor; 2013-10-10 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 2013-10-10, 07:32 AM   [Ignore Me] #2
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


From useage i'd say ZOE maxes can get hit by deci's. It happens to me, it happens to many others. Infact it happened twice to me last night.

You gotta remember that even with full kinetic, a ZOE takes a beating just by being hit with a carbine say. Even though they dish out pain, they are vulnerable. A slight beating turns into a heavy beating with ZOE turned on.

If i were to balance the empires maxes in their current states i would do the following (from a ZOE users point of view max on max);

NC = Make the shield GO ROUND THE SIDES of the max, only leaving the back exposed. There's been times i have literally just jumped round a shield max in my ZOE and hit it on it's side.

TR = Increase the speed of the clamping/de-clamping process, make it more lethal CQ and less vulnerable.

VS = A speed reduction. Make it not strafe as fast/or faster than a normal soldier. ( a part of me hates me for saying this )
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Old 2013-10-10, 08:08 AM   [Ignore Me] #3
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


Originally Posted by PredatorFour View Post
NC = Make the shield GO ROUND THE SIDES of the max, only leaving the back exposed. There's been times i have literally just jumped round a shield max in my ZOE and hit it on it's side.

TR = Increase the speed of the clamping/de-clamping process, make it more lethal CQ and less vulnerable.

VS = A speed reduction. Make it not strafe as fast/or faster than a normal soldier. ( a part of me hates me for saying this )
But so many others love you for it.
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Old 2013-10-10, 08:33 AM   [Ignore Me] #4
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


Originally Posted by PredatorFour View Post
From useage i'd say ZOE maxes can get hit by deci's. It happens to me, it happens to many others. Infact it happened twice to me last night.

You gotta remember that even with full kinetic, a ZOE takes a beating just by being hit with a carbine say. Even though they dish out pain, they are vulnerable. A slight beating turns into a heavy beating with ZOE turned on.

If i were to balance the empires maxes in their current states i would do the following (from a ZOE users point of view max on max);

NC = Make the shield GO ROUND THE SIDES of the max, only leaving the back exposed. There's been times i have literally just jumped round a shield max in my ZOE and hit it on it's side.

TR = Increase the speed of the clamping/de-clamping process, make it more lethal CQ and less vulnerable.

VS = A speed reduction. Make it not strafe as fast/or faster than a normal soldier. ( a part of me hates me for saying this )
I agree with you completely. The anchor time of the TR max plus the camera shaking while deploying is painful as hell

just something I want to point out. I know the bullets hits hard to a ZOE max (the normal damage is doubled), and I'm ok with that, but chasing a fast moving target can make you miss a bunch of bullets, that's what I was saying.
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Old 2013-10-10, 08:56 AM   [Ignore Me] #5
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


Originally Posted by PredatorFour View Post
From useage i'd say ZOE maxes can get hit by deci's. It happens to me, it happens to many others. Infact it happened twice to me last night.

You gotta remember that even with full kinetic, a ZOE takes a beating just by being hit with a carbine say. Even though they dish out pain, they are vulnerable. A slight beating turns into a heavy beating with ZOE turned on.

If i were to balance the empires maxes in their current states i would do the following (from a ZOE users point of view max on max);

NC = Make the shield GO ROUND THE SIDES of the max, only leaving the back exposed. There's been times i have literally just jumped round a shield max in my ZOE and hit it on it's side.

TR = Increase the speed of the clamping/de-clamping process, make it more lethal CQ and less vulnerable.

VS = A speed reduction. Make it not strafe as fast/or faster than a normal soldier. ( a part of me hates me for saying this )
Perfect.
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Old 2013-10-10, 12:37 PM   [Ignore Me] #6
typhaon
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


Except...

...it's quite a bit harder to shoot a ZOE vs. a TR/NC MAX... so, much of the ZOE penalty is mitigated by the speed boost... and, at extreme ranges, the speed boost can actually makes the ZOE more survivable than a non-ZOE MAX.
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Old 2013-10-10, 03:28 PM   [Ignore Me] #7
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


The strafing speed is the issue for a lot of reasons, and needs to be turned down.

The other issue is that ZOE can leave the ability on indefinitely and it can move faster than a normal soldier can sprint, while still being able to fire.

Because they can strafe, chase you, kill more quickly than any other max, and then run away, they are extremely difficult to counter.

The ZOE is only vulnerable when severely outnumbered or when they overextend themselves. Otherwise you have to chase them down, which normally gets you killed. The best normal counter is another max, and that max has to be extremely aggressive to chase that ZOE down.
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Old 2013-10-10, 06:23 PM   [Ignore Me] #8
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


The Zoe's DPS coupled with it's deep clips really make the ZOE strong. What makes the ZOE over the top is it's speed and lack of activation time and it's ability to run it's power indefinitely. With full ZOE, a VS MAX moves at 90% of infantry Sprint speed. You cannot escape it. You cannot get out of it's range and it has enough ammo to plow through many, many targets per clip. When reloading, you can simply run away or instantly turn off ZOE and reactivate when done. It is the single most broken unit in the game.

I'd balance MAX abilities as such:

VS ZOE - take away DPS increase and the damage vulnerability. Makes VS MAXes the most maneuverable. ZOE is full time speed boost.

TR - Get rid of lockdown and go with Overdirve. Increase RoF in a short burst that burns out and cannot be stopped.

NC - Make the shield a bubble and allow NC MAXes to shoot through it. Adjust the shield's absorption to match balance. Not being able to shoot, a pure defense, is stupid. Who cares if you're not taking damage if you're not shooting? When the shield drops, you're still starting at an even fight.

Also, NC MAXes are LOUD when they walk, while VS MAXes tip-toe and can actually sneak up on folks.
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Last edited by EVILPIG; 2013-10-11 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 2013-10-10, 06:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #9
bpostal
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


Originally Posted by Escroteitor View Post
...chasing a fast moving target can make you miss a bunch of bullets...
You can solve that by being TR. Or by being a good NC I suppose, either way.

Originally Posted by EVILPIG View Post
...

TR - Get rid of lockdown and go with Overdrive. Increase RoF in a short burst that burns out and cannot be stopped.

...
I'd back the NC "we're going up the stairs over your corpses now, ty" shields if we could swap out lockdown. I was really wrong when I was hoping for lockdown to be awesome as most anything other than a burster. Suppose I also can't say no to making the VS more maneuverable all around seeing as that seems to be their faction bennie anyway. On principle I can't speak against any potential nerf towards the VS (or NC) so I'm up for taking their damage effects away as well.


On the whole though, I have noticed that AV grenades (coupled with grenade bandolier) can usually fuck up a ZOE MAX fairly well. Plus if I can initiate combat and control (or at least affect) where the ZOE runs to I can get it to run dick first into a deci or a well prepared C4.
Of course you have to be quick about it because unless you're LA you can't really outrun a ZOE.
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Last edited by bpostal; 2013-10-10 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 2013-10-10, 07:01 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


Remove the speed increase completely. Fixed.

This way ZOE and LD are pretty much the same thing with different downsides.
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Old 2013-10-10, 10:58 PM   [Ignore Me] #11
Mordelicius
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


Yes, the ZOE doesn't really have a downside. Their so-called "downside" can be mitigated by two things:

- stupidly fast movement
- engineer repair

Compared to an NC Max which has a front shield. Let's say for sake of argument, damage mitigation is 50% (with back and side exposed).

A ZOE Max has 100% of the body exposed by due to the strafe speed. Let's again say for argument's sake, it has a similar 50% damage mitigation avoiding shots.

Now you know where this is heading. A Vanu Max can shoot (with high DPS buff), run fast and flank with impunity. While an NC Max has literally 0 DPS. Zero. Zero! So, practically the same survivability/damage mitigation but this thing can shoot at ALL RANGE WITH EASE,
making them ridiculously OP especially (but not limited to) long range, high ground or when they are bunched together. All they have to do is point at any door/cover and blast away. The infantry target won't have any dps counter whatsoever. Rocket launcher? Yeah try to hit a ZOE Max with a rocket at long range. They are already hard to hit at medium to short range as it is due to speed and unpredictable movement.

ZOE Max possible fixes:

1 - I'm also for removing the speed buff altogether and I've posted that many months ago. I addition, remove the extra damage it takes. Make it basically the same as a TR Max with no extra attack rate buff, but the same damage buff.

2 - Another alternative solution would be cooldown/energy use. It's far too spammable. In addition there should be a slight activation/deactivation time (I suggest 2 seconds) so it can't be just toggled on and off.

3 - Another different solution would be a no-repair state when ZOE is active and 5 seconds after it is turned off.
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Old 2013-10-11, 02:21 AM   [Ignore Me] #12
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


Bad players can't hit moving targets. Especially ZOE MAX's who know how to ADAD crouch dance.

If you are against good players who can consistently land shots on you, it's harder to survive in ZOE.

A lot of people get wrong opinions of ZOE by watching them stomp biolabs. Most people I farm are level 1 to 50 BR's who do not understand the game.

The Blueshifts need a cone of fire nerf, but aside from that, the VS MAX is balanced. The Comets are getting nerfed vs. Infantry too, which is necessary as well.

This thread seems to be filled with hyperbole and misconceptions from other players.

it can move faster than a normal soldier can sprint
This statement pretty much proves this.
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Old 2013-10-11, 02:38 AM   [Ignore Me] #13
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


Omg vanu have one thing that's slightly nice, nerf it immediately. If we don't they might go above 29% population somewhere.
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Old 2013-10-11, 04:25 AM   [Ignore Me] #14
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


Originally Posted by DredVS View Post
A lot of people get wrong opinions of ZOE by watching them stomp biolabs. Most people I farm are level 1 to 50 BR's who do not understand the game.

The Blueshifts need a cone of fire nerf, but aside from that, the VS MAX is balanced. The Comets are getting nerfed vs. Infantry too, which is necessary as well.

This thread seems to be filled with hyperbole and misconceptions from other players.
No, I got my impression from playing with it for a bit and having played against it for some time now.

Hadn't really thought about just tweaking the weapons to balance it. Maybe it would help, but wouldn't doing so just reduce the effectiveness of those who don't use ZOE? Don't think it would balance the ZOE if they nerfed the Blueshift.
True all MAX AV weapons are getting rebalanced.

Filled?:/

Originally Posted by DynamoECT View Post
Omg vanu have one thing that's slightly nice, nerf it immediately. If we don't they might go above 29% population somewhere.
This isn't the official forum, that won't work here.
Believe it or not most forum goers here want PS2 to be as balanced as possible.

I don't consider the ZOE overpowered since you have to know how to use it, yes I just used the learn to play argument, if you don't want to get gunned down very, very fast. For those who know how to use it, it becomes imbalanced. (Obviously even the best ZOE player can and will feel the downside of the ZOE from time to time. BOOM!)
To me the ZOE is just a "jack of all trades" ability since it's not situational and the downside can be mostly ignored. If it was up to me the ZOE would be more well defined in what it's supposed to do.
I know that Clegg stated that they wouldn't be making any big changes to the ZOE, but...
Want to keep the movement speed and damage buff: Give it a duration and or a cooldown (Basicly PS1 capacitors which could be added to all MAXes). Or give it an activation and deactivation time. Or a more creative type of restriction.
Want to keep the damage output: Reduce or remove the movement speed bonus and reduce the increased damage taken.
Want to keep the speed bonus: Remove the damage buff and perhaps lower the increased damage taken. (The ZOE being purely about speed wouldn't make much sense because we already have the charge and imo. ZOE shouldn't just be a direct upgrade).

Or something along those lines.
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Last edited by ChipMHazard; 2013-10-11 at 05:35 AM.
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Old 2013-10-11, 04:34 AM   [Ignore Me] #15
NUKABAZOOKA
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Re: My thoughs on ZOE


Originally Posted by EVILPIG View Post
VS ZOE - take away RoF increase and the damage vulnerability. Makes VS MAXes the most maneuverable. ZOE is full time speed boost.
Please educate yourself.
It is a damage percent increase based upon rank of ZOE, not rate of fire.
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