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2012-03-27, 08:38 AM
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[Ignore Me] #1 | ||
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Sergeant
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After reading through so many "vets vs newbies", "2003 vs 2012", "true fans vs false fans" and "all PS2 should be is a graphical upgrade of PS1" arguments in pretty much every thread, I notice that PS1 get's put on the pedestal of "near perfect game design" far more often than it should be if it didn't have 9 years of nostalgia behind it.So, I figured it's time to have a discussion about all the things that DIDN'T work in Planetside 1 and are in dire need of revamping/fixing.
*DISCLAIMER* The following list was compiled off what i can remember from having played the game for over two years from release to ~2007. Furthermore when i say something like "PS1's TTK was too long" it doesn't mean that I believe that all weapons should be OHOK nor does it necessarilly mean that I agree with where it currently is in the PS2 GDC footage. This is just a list of PS1 issues devoid of any PS2 comparisons or any opinion that I or others may have on ways to fix them, in order to remind people that PS1 certainly wasn't as perfect as most vets or people resistant to change would have you believe. -Bugs: PS1 was hands down the buggiest FPS most people have ever seen on release (runner-ups: SIN, BF2, daikatana). Special mention goes to invincible corpse bugs, upside down galaxies that fly underground, clipping and warping. -Balance: probably one the most unbalanced game to be released. Buggies and lightnings were always terribly gimped, BFRs and sometimes jackhammers or lashers (depending on patches) ruled the battlefield. -2 man tanks: Were horribly boring to drive, there simply wasn't anything to do. Especially after the patch that made it so you couldn't really kill people by running over them anymore. Gunning them was always quite fun though. -Half the vehicles were useless fluff: What's the point of an ATV when you can fly a mosquito? Whats the point of a harrasser when you can drive an assault buggy? Whats the point of an assault buggy when you can drive a MBT? And so on. -Bad base layouts: Didn't have enough variety, they all looked pretty much the same and having base interiors designed to funnel 300 players through a series of 2 meter wide doors and staircases (aka bottlenecks) is simply awful game design. -Wonky grief system: that would often punish victims (e.g: intentionally landing a galaxy on top of a tank, tank driver is now weapons locked). -TTK (Time to kill): Way too high. Some vets like to call it part of PS1's tried and tested "unique" gameplay, even though it was just done that way to cover up the netcoding and lag issues. Tanks having enough HP to require more than TWENTY direct hits from AV rounds to take down was way beyond the realms of stupid. -Free form class system: Good idea in theory, in practice it was not only impossible to balance (even in other games that had it too like Tribes) but also worked against teamplay by allowing everyone to be everything at once (rexo/HA/AV/adv med/adv eng/CR5 builds...) rather than opening up choices such as, do I want to be a medic or an engineer? a sniper or an anti tank guy? -The heal/repair system: Most COD, halo or BF3 "haters" point to health regen as one of the worst casualised/consolised features in modern mainstream FPS. Sure, in PS1 you had to have certs and press a couple of buttons to do it, but the mechanic was just as stupid. Even more so, if you consider the ridiculous advantage it gave to players high enough to have both medical and engineering certs. -The "fourth empire" (aka switching to a different empire when one had an OP vehicle/weapon). -Hackers. -The sheer lack of new content and it's terrible quality when it actually happened: BFR implementation, the bending, core combat caves... -Bad XP incentives: Your team needs you to defend an unsecured base? Just don't, it's way more xp to move on with the zerg. Your team needs you to move ahead of the zerg to secure towers/strategic locations while they cap a base? Don't do it, you absolutely need to be inside the SOI in order to get capture XP. A tank is raping your squad mates? Don't bother, it's easier and more xp to ignore it and keep on sniping infantry. -Overly simplistic damage modeling: Shooting someone in their toe-nail did as much damage as shooting them in the face. Hand guns would damage tanks... Feel free to add to the list... |
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2012-03-27, 08:46 AM
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[Ignore Me] #2 | |||
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Major
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First of all, the love of God read the "what we know" and Reddit threads.
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2012-03-27, 09:45 AM
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[Ignore Me] #3 | ||
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Sergeant
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As far as I could deduce it would seem that OP intended to list the reasons why certain changes have been made.
And seeing a comprehensive list like this really makes one realize that PlanetSide 2 addresses a whole of issues that PS1 players used to face. Which is NOT the same as saying that PlanetSide 2 will be perfect. Some of the solutions introduce issues of their own. And this doesn't mean that I agree with all the issues pointed out. For example, I personally had a fondness for many PS1 base designs. But I can certainly understand the arguments offered and understand why many people would like to see a change in PlanetSide 2. But I do agree that it's not just sufficient to list why, compared to PS1, the new features are bad, but it should be handy to regularly point to the issues they were intended to resolve. I'm glad this thread was made. |
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2012-03-27, 09:45 AM
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[Ignore Me] #4 | |||
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Sergeant Major
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Last edited by DOUBLEXBAUGH; 2012-03-27 at 09:47 AM. |
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2012-03-27, 10:55 AM
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[Ignore Me] #7 | ||
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Major
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LOL @ Stardouser for enraging the peeps!
(I saw you'd asked a couple of times for a list like this, but given the amazingly grumpy nature of the boards the last couple of days, a reply like the first one was almost inevitable  )Looking forward to this discussion. It should help clarify for all exactly why PS2 is looking so absolutely awesome! |
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2012-03-27, 11:14 AM
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[Ignore Me] #8 | ||
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Colonel
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Here is the list of Battlefield Veteran issues that I made over at Mordor for you guys to compare. Since some of you may not have played ANY Battlefield games, I have made additions in magenta to the original version to provide additional context for those of you who need it.
I am quite certain I have missed a few issues that are of importance but this is to provide a comparison to the Battlefield Veteran issues and you can judge how similar/dissimilar they may be to Planetside Veteran issues. If any of you Planetside Veterans see any issue topics that the original poster missed, please, bring them up, because in a few days I may be able to provide an analysis of the overall PS list of issues. The Ultimate Goal for one of you PS1 vets should be, once we start getting more concrete details of how the game's going to be, to make a list similar to this that breaks out the problems you see in PS2. You could also do it now, and just change it as things progress. In fact, if you want to have any chance of changing things, you'd BETTER start now. 1. TTK Time to Kill is the time it takes to kill an enemy once you have started firing at him. It is a combination of bullet damage, rate of fire, presence or lack of deviation(you know this as spread or “cone of fire”) and recoil, and other factors. Hell, even as hit detection improves, that affects TTK. 2. Time between kills/engagements This is a different but related issue to TTK. This is referring to the pace of the game between fights, instead of how fast each kill is from first hit to death. Small maps cause this to be fast, 3D spotting and audio spotting also cause this to be fast because enemies will constantly be firing at you from long range due to these things. The Battlefield veterans prefer that there be a few seconds between the end of one firefight to the start of the next. In GENERAL, obviously, sometimes if you’re fighting over a very important base this isn’t so easy to define. But in BF3 there is virtually no time between firefights. Some people say, “well, go play on 16 player servers”. But that’s not a solution because that reduces the strategic play of the map. And, Planetside being a hell of a lot more than even 64 players, I think you all agree. 3. Teamwork and teamwork tools • lack of squad voip, lack of innovative voip channels such as inter-squad, close air support requests, etc. This doesn’t seem like it will be a problem in PS2. • No clear leaders, allspawning leads to squad fracturing This refers to BF3 letting ALL members of a squad spawn on any other squad member. This causes half your squad to be in one place and half in another, a mile apart sometimes, since there is no clear leader. It also increases the game pace between fights because squads are hard to kill, they’ve always got one last guy hiding somewhere. • functionally deficient commo rose This refers to your communication preset voiceovers. Again, probably this will work just fine in PS2. • nonexistent orders rose(the ability to order your squad to things other than flags) Believe it or not, Battlefield 3 will not allow you to order your squad to go anywhere but to a flag. • focus on stats, and the need to stat pad in order to progress through the lengthy unlock system faster Probably needs no explanation. • lack of - Full size overview map. Proper colors and clearly visible. Interactive; can make/see orders. • - Order System. Absolutely not the failed BFBC2 socialize button. BF2 style system with more wavepoints than just a straight line. Orders show on mini-map. SLs only can see orders of other squads. See nonexistent orders rose 4. The general tendency towards lock-on weapons and press-button countermeasures, instead of skill based solutions BF3 has brought so many lock on weapons it’s not funny. 5. Noobifications in general, which take skill out of the equation because these things constitute automatic help from the game, which unfairly evens the odds • 3D spotting This tells you exactly where to aim, tells you exactly where inside a building someone is, etc . • Audiospotting This casualization means that whenever you fire your weapon, you AUTOMATICALLY show up on the minimap of enemies unless you are using a suppressor. • Killcam BF3’s killcam is a revenge cam, showing you where the enemy is. • Health Regen Infantry Health Regen and Vehicle Regen I can almost accept slow infantry health regen but VEHICLE regen?? • Scope glint Sniper rifles can be seen across the map like a blazing star…snipers are completely denied the use of stealth. • Ability to spray easily(whatever the cause, lack of recoil or otherwise) This really goes under TTK • Minimap fire control for mortars instead of a teamwork based spotting system You heard this right. BF3 has mortars, they do not require teamwork, you just fire using your minimap, and it’s pinpoint accurate. Combine this with audiospotting for disaster. 6. Poor map design- Fortunately, this isn’t likely to be as big of an issue in PS2 as it is in BAttlefield 3, however, I do note the original poster's reference to bad base design. • Small maps that funnel fights with little flanking opportunity • Playable space too small • Distance between flags too small • Larger maps have no personality, no strategic concerns that might be handled differently from one round to another • out of bounds uncaps, which, while some people focus on "OMG base raypur!" others realize that when bases, especially airfields, are not cappable or even assailable, the map is functionally shrunk in combat area and is also, again, causing a lack of strategic options This, you have to remember, in Battlefield the heavy jets and tanks are in UNCAPPABLE bases where you can’t do anything about them. PS2 is different, yes there will be sanctuaries or the equivalent, but they are far away (usually). It’s not like the enemy will always have a big tank base 500m away that you’re not allowed to capture OR attack. 7. Art design and direction, sound: In BF3 people are hard to see because of the graphics, and this provides an unfortunate excuse to players who say “oh but we need 3D spotting because of the graphics”. • Blinding sun • Graphics make enemies hard to see in many situations that aren't justified by the terrain, giving additional ammo to people who support noobifications like 3D spotting • Sound effects are immersive but you can’t hear shot directions and you can’t hear enemy footsteps behind you 8. Vehicle Physics and Vehicle Customizations, disabling • Standard vehicle tools like smoke have been replaced by having to choose Battlefield vets like to have smoke and coaxial machine gun standard in their tanks, for example. BF3 forces you to choose between things like that. • Disabling Battlefield 3 has a feature whereby, a tank for example, when it reaches 50% health, it is disabled. Disabling means its speed is greatly reduced AND, worst of all, its remaining health burns . The Battlefield Veteran opinion on how to fix this varies, but we are nearly unanimous in saying that it can’t stay as it is. On average, I would say that the BF vets want the burning part to be removed, and for disabling not to occur until 20 or 30% health. 9. Unlocks and Points • Watered down unlock system • Screen clogging points notification I understand that PS vets are also concerned about point notifications clogging your screen. Last edited by Stardouser; 2012-03-27 at 01:07 PM. |
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2012-03-27, 11:21 AM
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[Ignore Me] #9 | ||
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Contributor Major
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I agree that everything on this list was a problem in PS1 and not features as some here would believe.
I'd even add a few other things to that list. Sanctuaries (probably free to argue here) - Provide all the vehicles you could want to land on nearly any front thanks to galaxies and lodestars. Whats the point of techplants and dropship facilities again? The foothold system in PS2 fails to address this and in my opinion they should only offer the basics in vehicles and their modules. Too big - During the later stages of the game their was only 1 good fight at peak and outfits resorted to taking undefended bases only for no defenders to come and pick it back up. The players were spread too thin. This is better in PS2 thanks to the new territory system and lower continent count. Spawning mechanics - Spawn rooms sucked. AMS's were just as terrible with the prevalence of OS's. I'm looking forward to how PS2 changes this. Horrid U.I and COF indicator - This is the worst thing that affected my enjoyment of PS1. Terrible health indicators with a RED SCREEN for when you got shot and the obnoxious LETS PUT A HUGE PISS YELLOW CIRCLE IN YOUR FACE to let you know that you hit them in the foot where locational damage didn't even matter. LACK OF END GAME CONTENT - Something that PS2 still fails to address and fails to even have good solutions from the player community. It's something that plagues similar business models like Tribes: Ascend and League of Legends which at least balance this with customization and fun/quick gameplay. PS1 wasn't fun for short gaming sesssions, hopefully PS2 will be. Last edited by ArmedZealot; 2012-03-27 at 11:27 AM. |
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2012-03-27, 11:23 AM
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[Ignore Me] #10 | ||
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Contributor PSU Moderator
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Those are all good points Stardouser. Though the formatting made it kinda a pain to read. If you want more people to read that do some proper formatting of it like adding at least spaces between each main point. Just looks like a massive wall of text at the moment.
Although I still do not know what people mean by end of game content. Its a FPS and you are able to level your character in order to be a better fighting machine. That will let you enjoy the game better once you are maxed out. I never felt a sense of not being able to do anything once I reached BR25/CR5 back in PS1. This isn't a RPG, has some elements of course, but its still a FPS.
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SS89Goku - NC - BR33 - CR5||LFO? Want help upgrading/building a new computer? Will your desktop/laptop run PS2? How PhysX runs on Nvidia and AMD (ATI) systems PlanetSide Universe Rules 
Last edited by Goku; 2012-03-27 at 11:26 AM. |
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2012-03-27, 11:24 AM
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[Ignore Me] #11 | |||
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Contributor General
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You don't need to be inside an SOI to get capture xp. Members of your squad need to be inside just prior to the hack and after the hack. The amount of xp is dependant upon the amount of time squad members are inside the SOI while there are also nme there. At the point of capture you don't need to be in the SOI to get the xp, you only need to be on the continent. Also, you didn't need a high rank to get both engy and med tools.......
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2012-03-27, 11:30 AM
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[Ignore Me] #12 | |||
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Brigadier General
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But the list does make me realize that Vets may not be as uniform as i assumed. GOtta make sure i short my stuff correctly... |
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2012-03-27, 11:51 AM
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[Ignore Me] #13 | ||
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Contributor General
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re: Time Between Engagements and Time Between Kills.
In PS1 this can vary quite enormously, depending on what you're doing. In you're preparing a base for an attack (ie setting up CE and ams spawn ponts you can go for upto 1/2 hr without seeing an enemy. Likewise if you're doing an ant run or other 'housekeeping'. If you're actively defending a base I would usually get say 20 kills per hour. In general I'd say I get 10 kills per hour when all downtime is taken into account. However, I am not a kill-whore by any means. The real killers will get 1 kill per minute over an extended period of time. A small number have done 1000-1200 within a 24 hour period. Bases: In PS1 there were only 6 different base designs on the surface and 3 designs in the caves. The good, is that they were easy to learn (although some found it harder than others). The bad is that they became monotonous after a while. I don't imagine ps2 will have the same base issues, although I do wonder if some will start to complain that it's too hard to find your way around, if every base is different that is.
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Last edited by ringring; 2012-03-27 at 12:01 PM. |
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2012-03-27, 12:56 PM
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[Ignore Me] #14 | ||||||||||
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Sergeant
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BFRs were overpowered, that's a give but now are reasonable Jack hammers were OP for the first few months but then they got nerfed to hell (hence why most NC carry the Sweeper now). the lasher has a always been touch and go and i'm glad that it's not making a comeback.
harrasser: mostly used as a LLU scoring vehicle. also useful because an rexo can drive it assault buggy: you have both firepower and speed. your able to shoot and scoot much faster than mostly anything. MBT: cream of the crop medium armor. useful for taking damage and killing things. BFR: Zerg support. both the gunner and the flight require a zerg to support it ortherwise the BFR get's swarmed. many of the vehicles are not "fluff" but actual serve a purpose. taking away options never sits well with the player base either.
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2012-03-27, 01:05 PM
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[Ignore Me] #15 | |||
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Colonel
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List of PS1 issues that need fixing for PS2
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