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Old 2004-02-13, 05:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #31
Queensidecastle
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My point here is that the MAX should not be a one man army. So leave its nemesis, the Deci, alone. And leave the timer alone.
Having the Deci take 4 shots instead of 3 doesnt create a 1 man army. All it does is resolve a stupid situation where the Decimator is overpowered. I mean, hello, you dont even need to reload to kill a MAX. Thats just not right. You should in the very least have to reload some weapon to fully kill a fresh MAX. I know Decis dont reload so you should have to go into your inventor and equip a new one to "reload"
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Old 2004-02-13, 05:43 PM   [Ignore Me] #32
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Originally Posted by Queensidecastle
Having the Deci take 4 shots instead of 3 doesnt create a 1 man army. All it does is resolve a stupid situation where the Decimator is overpowered. I mean, hello, you dont even need to reload to kill a MAX. Thats just not right. You should in the very least have to reload some weapon to fully kill a fresh MAX. I know Decis dont reload so you should have to go into your inventor and equip a new one to "reload"
I agree with this. With AV getting a boost I was actually considering making this thread instead a "let's change the deci so that it isn't so lethal to MAXs but has a different application", only I couldn't think of a decent application for it. Suffice to say, the ease with which I can use Surge to dance around a MAX with a Deci, giving me a free kill and him a wait time, is pretty ridiculous. MAXs sacrifice so much for being barely more effective at their given job than infantry is (with the exception of AA MAXs), and yet the trade off is incredible given their inutility and weakness to AV weapons.
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Old 2004-02-13, 07:55 PM   [Ignore Me] #33
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I totally agree with jagd, a 2min timer is ridiculous. You cant just go out and kill in a max like you're immortal or something, take cover, and dont always charge up the front.
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Old 2004-02-13, 08:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #34
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Originally Posted by Neon Apocalypse
I totally agree with jagd, a 2min timer is ridiculous. You cant just go out and kill in a max like you're immortal or something, take cover, and dont always charge up the front.
That's exactly my point. You aren't immortal. You do die pretty quickly. So why is a 5 minute timer necessary? If MAXs are just as prone to being killed as infantry are should they put a foot out the door, and aren't even close to being Gods in their combat ability, why are they crammed with a myriad of restrictions including a five minute reequip timer? With how AV weaponry is being bumped up, there has to be some consideration for the things AV weapons tend to prey on. Reavers can kiss my ass, but MAXs need to be augmented in response.
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Old 2004-02-13, 09:01 PM   [Ignore Me] #35
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After the change to AV, all armor is effected Aircraft too. Why not MAXs? Planteside is moving towards a more team orientaded direction. Changing the timers would just support the current Rambo/Quake style that so many complain about. You keep the timers the way they are more people are forced to work together. You will see all MAXs running with there pet engis.

The deci is fine, for my 3 (6 with MA)certs I better have a good chance of killing someone who also spent 3 (5 if uni-max)certs. Not to mention once that deci is gone my MAX killing abilities are greatly reduced.
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Old 2004-02-13, 09:26 PM   [Ignore Me] #36
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Originally Posted by Queensidecastle
Having the Deci take 4 shots instead of 3 doesnt create a 1 man army. All it does is resolve a stupid situation where the Decimator is overpowered. I mean, hello, you dont even need to reload to kill a MAX. Thats just not right. You should in the very least have to reload some weapon to fully kill a fresh MAX. I know Decis dont reload so you should have to go into your inventor and equip a new one to "reload"
The deci and timer force MAX units to use teamwork with infantry support or get spanked.

Imagine a 3 or 4 shot deci kill and AI maxes with no timer... ok, so I have a platoon defending against the zerg... from the base spawn room we just max suit up and rush, die, and instanty suit up again... you'd have a perpetual stream of AI MAX units pouring from the spawn room... who the hell would be able to take that?

Answer a perpetual stream of MAX units pouring from the tower...

Also who needs support certs like engineering? Just go to the terminal change armor and *poof* you are instantly back to 650 armor and fresh ammo/health pack capacity...

Above ground vehicles and a perpetual flood of MAX units would own... inside MAX units would own... you just need a few good cloakers to hack doors, CC, and terminals...

Welcome to MAXside... a.k.a. PlanetSide II

NO THANKS!
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Old 2004-02-13, 09:31 PM   [Ignore Me] #37
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Originally Posted by Heckler01
After the change to AV, all armor is effected Aircraft too. Why not MAXs? Planteside is moving towards a more team orientaded direction. Changing the timers would just support the current Rambo/Quake style that so many complain about. You keep the timers the way they are more people are forced to work together. You will see all MAXs running with there pet engis.

The deci is fine, for my 3 (6 with MA)certs I better have a good chance of killing someone who also spent 3 (5 if uni-max)certs. Not to mention once that deci is gone my MAX killing abilities are greatly reduced.
Vehicles being affected is the entire reason AV is being changed. MAXs were not a major problem, however, and yet they will be adversely affected by this.

Changing the timer does not encourage the "Rambo/Quake style" anymore than it already is in other facets of PS. In the game, I tend to snipe a lot. You think I need anybody with me to snipe? Hell no. I can heal and repair myself and support myself in other ways as well. I do not need anyone with me to snipe effectively. MAXs, on the other hand, are completely dependent on others for repairs and are very restricted in what they can and can't kill with any given weapon. Even with a 2 minute timer MAXs are light years more dependent on other people and less inclined to go out solo than any other type of player in the game. Pilots, ground vehicle crews, and light infantry of all types are all free to go out solo and be self-sufficient, and you're worried about MAXs doing the same by just reducing their timer? Give me a break.

Also, while you may think the Decimator (it's 2 certs to get MA, so it costs 5 certs in total) is fine because you paid 5 certs for it, maybe I should inform you that unlike regular infantry, MAXs can't heal or repair themselves. MAXs can't hack. MAXs can't carry a variety of weapons as infantry can to give them flexibility in combat. Like, say, carrying a Decimator in your backpack so that if you see a MAX, so you can stow your HA and kill the MAX in two shots. They trade a lot of utility for benefits which fall to pieces the minute they encounter someone with a Decimator, who'll heal and repair themself to full after killing the MAX, and them pull out some other weapon to go kill infantry with too. This is a broken system, and one I honestly hope the developers change in the near future, because the AV buff is going to aggravate it like hell.

Last edited by Warborn; 2004-02-13 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 2004-02-13, 11:03 PM   [Ignore Me] #38
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I agree with Oxo and War, sorta. MAXs aren't even an annoyance anymore.

With the number of deci users out there you're better off with a HA weapon and Agile/Standard armor when assaulting the enemy. Think about that for a second. You're better off making a fontal assault in the least protective armor. That's. Fucked. Up.

Quite frankly if you want to assault a base you should be using MAXs as your killing power and infantry for support. That is encouraging teamwork. The way it's currently working you're better off taking a HA weapon, ammo and maybe a Deci incase you hit a MAX and running around shooting everything in sight. You don't need anyone else for anything other than giving the enemy other bodies to shoot at so you don't get totally ganbanged.

However if you're using MAXs for your assault and infantry to support them, teamwork is required if you wish to succeed. The counter for MAXs should be MAXs or vehicles. AV (once the Deci is in) should be an option, but it shouldn't be nearly as viable of an option as having AV MAXs backing you up when you're facing those enemy MAXs turning that corner. As it stands now you're better off having people with Decis than you are having people in AV MAXs because not only can they take out those MAXs as infantry with Decis as well, if not better, than being suited up in an AV MAX, they are still very mobile and can be completely self sufficient. A MAX needs repairs. It needs people to open doors. Someone in Rexo/Agile/Standard doesn't.

Because of the Deci users the same goes for AI MAXs. You're better of as infantry because a lot of people have Decis and if you're in a MAX that basically means you're fucked. However as infantry not only are you much more self sufficient but you also generally are going to live longer because of your increased mobility and no Deci users to worry about. Yes you can still die quickly but on average you're going to live longer because you can dodge much easier and you can run away using surge. As a MAX a shitload of people have a gun that can maul you very quickly but you don't have the mobility needed to run or dodge.

Again, as it stands right now with AV and the Deci being as powerful against MAXs as the are, you're better off and you live longer in the weakest armor types. That isn't right.



So what is the answer? Recuding MAX timer? Well, that could help the problem but I don't think it addresses the real issue with MAXs. That issue being you don't get enough protection for wearing the heaviest kind of armor. Or rather you're able to take a ton of AI fire, but the proliferation of AV weaponry makes your average lifespan go down while wearing MAX armor. So the two obvious options are buffing MAX armor or nerfing AV weaponry. If I had to pick out of those I'd take the buff. Anti-vehicle weaponry already has enough trouble dealing with vehicles. Nerfing the damage would only exacerbate that problem. Increasing MAX armor? Well you would be in effect making MAXs all but invulnerable to AI weaponry, but I don't really have a problem with that. The key would be how much to you adjust it. That's something that would require a lot of numbers and testing to balance.

The point however remains. If you want to encourage teamwork and reduce the moronic quake feeling that is so often present in PS, you need to encourage teamwork which means reducing the ability of players to be self sufficient. As it stands you can be totally self sufficient as infantry and while you can deal some impressive damage with a MAX, you oftentimes don't live long enough for it to matter and the drawbacks of using a MAX suit really aren't worth the loss in overall effectiveness to most people.
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Old 2004-02-14, 12:04 AM   [Ignore Me] #39
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Originally Posted by Happy lil' Elf
So what is the answer? Recuding MAX timer? Well, that could help the problem but I don't think it addresses the real issue with MAXs. That issue being you don't get enough protection for wearing the heaviest kind of armor. Or rather you're able to take a ton of AI fire, but the proliferation of AV weaponry makes your average lifespan go down while wearing MAX armor.
As I noted above, I'm in complete agreement with this sentiment. I honestly think MAXs need a major armor boost and that the Decimator in its current form needs to go. With AV being enhanced, let people fight MAXs with their AV weapons. Don't think you'll survive an encounter with an AI MAX using your AV weapon? Good, that's the idea. They're surrendering all of the versitility, mobility and self-sufficiency of standard infantry for something, and that something needs to pay off.

The reason I suggested a lighter spawn timer instead was because I'm not sure if the devs want MAXs to be formidable. Their design doc regarding MAX armor may illustrate that MAXs, for instance, are meant to be only marginally stronger than Reinforced in terms of their impact on battles. I'm definitely glad this thread has evolved into this much more effective (in my opinion) solution, though.
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Old 2004-02-14, 02:49 AM   [Ignore Me] #40
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I'd have more fun in this game if maxs were something to be, I don't know, feared.

I'd rather they be more powerful than for the timers to go down. Decreasing the deci's effectiveness is a start.
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Old 2004-02-14, 03:30 AM   [Ignore Me] #41
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Timers are not a problem with Uni-MAX. I don't think any changes are needed, but I don't think it would make a huge difference if the timers were lowered.
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Old 2004-02-14, 08:59 AM   [Ignore Me] #42
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In my opinion, it is absolutely ridiculous the way the decimator works out. Even if it is an Anti-Vehicle weapon, why should an Anti-Infantry Suit be killed by infantry? It's like a soldier with a LAW taking out a T-80. It's possible, but highly unlikely.
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Old 2004-02-14, 11:15 AM   [Ignore Me] #43
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Originally Posted by ChewyLSB
In my opinion, it is absolutely ridiculous the way the decimator works out. Even if it is an Anti-Vehicle weapon, why should an Anti-Infantry Suit be killed by infantry? It's like a soldier with a LAW taking out a T-80. It's possible, but highly unlikely.
No, it's like a guy with a LAW taking out a T-80 at optimal range and elevation for the T-80's main gun and whatever secondary weapons it has. You're walking into its supposed niche and beating it at its own game.
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Old 2004-02-14, 01:39 PM   [Ignore Me] #44
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Against a MAX, the Deci should have a TTK >= the worst AV MAX. Against armor, an AV MAX should be as effective or mores so than any infantry weapon.

Nerf the Deci or buff the MAX.

Last edited by Fenrys; 2004-02-14 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 2004-02-14, 01:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #45
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I dont think it even needs to be that drastic. Let the Deci do all the damage it does to everything else but make it where it does less damage to MAX suits. After all, MAXs are not vehicles. When is the last time you saw someone bail out of a MAX suit?
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