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Old 2004-02-14, 01:49 PM   [Ignore Me] #46
Spee
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Seriously. This chapped my ass hardcore.



Jumpjet into tower, in Quasar MAX.
Proceed to CC.
Come across guy with JH out, begin shooting at the length between the floor and halfway up the stairway.
JH guy has enough time to turn, see me, put away JH, take out deci, shoot me once, backpedal as I jumpjet, and smack me again as I try to evade.



WTF? No, that should NEVER happen, EVER. ESPECIALLY against an AI MAX.

Deci's TTK against AV/AA MAX should be lower than thier TTK towards a deci user, but NOT against an AI MAX.
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Old 2004-02-14, 04:56 PM   [Ignore Me] #47
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Originally Posted by Spee
Seriously. This chapped my ass hardcore.



Jumpjet into tower, in Quasar MAX.
Proceed to CC.
Come across guy with JH out, begin shooting at the length between the floor and halfway up the stairway.
JH guy has enough time to turn, see me, put away JH, take out deci, shoot me once, backpedal as I jumpjet, and smack me again as I try to evade.



WTF? No, that should NEVER happen, EVER. ESPECIALLY against an AI MAX.

Deci's TTK against AV/AA MAX should be lower than thier TTK towards a deci user, but NOT against an AI MAX.
I know that can be annoying, but...

1. Your TTK is faster than his, in that situation either you were missing ALOT or he was just using cover while he reloaded. I kill MAX units all the time with the Phoenix which is a 3 shot kill... mobility+cover=win.

2. As to my earlier point... if you had just 1 MA or HA infantry buddy this guy would be an easy kill. The strength of the MAX is it forces the infantry to make the decision... do I carry my gun in hand or do I carry my deci in hand... this makes him vitually naked against either infantry or MAX units. Just exploit this weakness with your tactics. Go in with a HA or MA infantry buddy... And when some rexo tries to play decimator peek-a-boo around a corner like that your infantry guy will rush in for the easy kill AND block his deci shot by charging right into his face... now the enemy can only hit him and he can't miss... it is over quickly. Have your infantry buddy take the "point" position where he goes first. The enemy comes back with HA? No problem, infantry boy pulls back around the corner and this time you are used as cover.... a AI MAX and 1 or 2 infantry can own in a tower for a long time using this tactic.

Nerfing the Deci and or decreasing the MAX armor timer will only allow for MAX units to rambo... I much prefer the power to remain in teamwork.
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Old 2004-02-14, 06:37 PM   [Ignore Me] #48
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Originally Posted by BadAsh
I know that can be annoying, but...

1. Your TTK is faster than his, in that situation either you were missing ALOT or he was just using cover while he reloaded. I kill MAX units all the time with the Phoenix which is a 3 shot kill... mobility+cover=win.
Even though the MAX has sacrificed so much you think it's A-OK that stuff like what Spee described happens (and it does happen a lot, make no mistake about it)? And short of never going inside a building or in heavily wooded/rocky areas, how exactly does a MAX avoid such attacks?

2. As to my earlier point... if you had just 1 MA or HA infantry buddy this guy would be an easy kill. The strength of the MAX is it forces the infantry to make the decision... do I carry my gun in hand or do I carry my deci in hand... this makes him vitually naked against either infantry or MAX units. Just exploit this weakness with your tactics. Go in with a HA or MA infantry buddy... And when some rexo tries to play decimator peek-a-boo around a corner like that your infantry guy will rush in for the easy kill AND block his deci shot by charging right into his face... now the enemy can only hit him and he can't miss... it is over quickly. Have your infantry buddy take the "point" position where he goes first. The enemy comes back with HA? No problem, infantry boy pulls back around the corner and this time you are used as cover.... a AI MAX and 1 or 2 infantry can own in a tower for a long time using this tactic.
You run into these situations a lot when you attack a base or tower. As it turns out, unless you completely overhwelm the enemy anyway, you've always got a mix. Some of the guys will have Decimators out to shoot at the MAXs, some will have their HA for the infantry. Even in a 2v2 situation, should both enemy infantry decide to pull out their Decimators, the MAX will be killed immidiately, and then you have one infantry guy against two infantry guys, though one or both will be damaged somewhat. For all the flash and restrictions dumped upon a MAX, they are anything but decisive in combat.

Nerfing the Deci and or decreasing the MAX armor timer will only allow for MAX units to rambo... I much prefer the power to remain in teamwork.
As I said earlier in this post, MAXs are the only guys who can't solo. I can solo with my sniper or as regular infantry, or in a Reaver or tank (provided I have a gunner, though I can repair myself) or anything else. PS is not a game where teamwork is necessary. All that's necessary is numbers. MAXs are the only people who are forced to rely on others, and as such, I think it's very unusual that people would use the "well MAXs shouldn't be able to solo" excuse, when they themselves almost certainly solo, or if not, have the capacity to solo.
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Old 2004-02-14, 07:13 PM   [Ignore Me] #49
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Nerfing the Deci and or decreasing the MAX armor timer will only allow for MAX units to rambo
Decis taking 4 shots instead of 3 is about as far from rambo as you get
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Old 2004-02-14, 07:24 PM   [Ignore Me] #50
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IMHO, you guys are just not up to the challenge. When you suit up in an AI MAX you get a free kill on any infantry that does not have a Deci. To those that do have a Deci it's 50/50 on who wins depending on how smart you play it and what the situation is. If you see him comming you will win. If you don't he will, it's that simple.

That's damn good for 3 cert points. I'm not really sure what you guys want, invulnerability from infantry?

Warborn you are talking about MAX units soloing and they CAN. I solo with my AA MAX all the time. I get into the same places snipers usually hang out and kill aircraft that come by. When I take enough damage or need more ammo I just jog over the the closest tower and repick my MAX.

You seem to be asking for the power to rush into a horde of enemy infantry and kill them all with no risk. That's not solo, that's over powered.

The MAX units are fine as they are. Make them powerful enough to "solo" as you guys are describing and they will be invincible members of a team...
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Old 2004-02-14, 08:02 PM   [Ignore Me] #51
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So you think that's it's absolutely fair that an Infantry still has a 50/50 chance against an anti-infantry MAX?
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Old 2004-02-14, 08:18 PM   [Ignore Me] #52
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The main point is you sacfrifice a lot for using a MAX. With how common AV weaponry has become, does the sacrifice make taking a MAX over a lighter suit of armor with it's increased arsenal, mobility and effectivness a viable option? The answer, at least in my opinion, is no it does not.

And the real bitch? Adjusting anything to create the appropriatre balance is damn near impossible. Why? You can't take into consideration the human factor. People tend to dump anything that gets nerfed and pick up anything that gets buffed damn near immediately. If everyone and their mother wasn't carrying Decis there wouldn't be a problem. However if you up the MAX armor and people get frustrated and drop the Deci you now have an overpowered MAX suit.

Take the Jackhammer for instance. Back when the Jackhammer was a joke (and in it's early days it was) no one used it because it was like pissing four certs away for what was essentially a pretty looking Sweeper. So it gets buffed and, as is usual, people flocked to it which then reated an imbalance not due to it's power, but due to the fact that everyone had it. The same happened with the TR MAXs when they got nerfed. Everyone dropped the cert and since NC/VS was no longer facing 3 or 4 locked down AI MAX suits everytime they tried to enter a base, the maybe 1 or 2 that kept the cert no longer had the power to stand up to the opposition they were facing. It's been seen time and time again. Because of how the average player reacts to nerfs/buffs, it's very difficult to get things working as intended.

Making any change to this game is vey very difficult, because depending on the perception of the change and can not only eliminate any balance issues that are out of whack, but create another imbalance in the exact opposite of what it was before.

To top it all off? We have little to no idea how the Devs really want this game to work. Do they want MAX suits to be the main spearhead of any assault? Do they want it to focus more on mobility? Do they want tanks to be the end all to outdoor battles? Do they like that infantry have very little in their arsenal to fight back against tanks or do they want infantry to be able to deal with heavy tanks effectivly as well? Do they want someone ina MAX suit to be largely defensless to any infantry who knows how to circle and pull out a deci at the same time? We simply don't know. Good questions for an ask the devs I suppose but I have a feeling any direct and to the point questions about "How do you want <topic> to work? Is it working and being used as intended?" will get sidestepped faster than you can blink.
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Old 2004-02-14, 09:28 PM   [Ignore Me] #53
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I think AV specialist Infantry should be the only one to have a fighting chance against Maxes and Vehicles.

Everyone else who spots Maxes & Vehicles should run in fear!
Like wise, if you ever see a Soldier with a AV weapon on his/her back running away from them, try and keep up!
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Old 2004-02-14, 10:35 PM   [Ignore Me] #54
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Originally Posted by BadAsh
IMHO, you guys are just not up to the challenge. When you suit up in an AI MAX you get a free kill on any infantry that does not have a Deci. To those that do have a Deci it's 50/50 on who wins depending on how smart you play it and what the situation is. If you see him comming you will win. If you don't he will, it's that simple.
First off, good luck finding an infantryman who doesn't have any AV weapon of any kind. Second, infantry with Decimators aren't your only problem. Reavers kill non-AA MAXs easily, and I'm sure they specifically look for MAXs when attacking. And finally, once again we come to this "well you can kill them sometimes" stuff. What is the infantry guy sacrificing in order to use a Decimator? A little bit of inventory space or a holster. You sacrifice all your utility, mobility, and versitility to have a 50/50 chance against someone who's giving up a weapon holster or a bit of inventory space. Good thing MAXs have a five minute timer too, huh?

That's damn good for 3 cert points. I'm not really sure what you guys want, invulnerability from infantry?
Invulnerability? Nah. How about some measure of protection against infantry?

Warborn you are talking about MAX units soloing and they CAN. I solo with my AA MAX all the time. I get into the same places snipers usually hang out and kill aircraft that come by. When I take enough damage or need more ammo I just jog over the the closest tower and repick my MAX.
Solo, rambo, whatever you want to call it. I'm saying that anything but a MAX is able to be self-sufficient on the battlefield, and you're calling foul because MAXs would be able to do the same should the timer go down (although given the responses I'm abandoning the timer deal and moving to significant MAX enhancements instead to justify the timer).

You seem to be asking for the power to rush into a horde of enemy infantry and kill them all with no risk. That's not solo, that's over powered.
Tanks can cut a swath through infantry no problem, and they share a lot of the limitations MAXs do too. Now, while I don't want MAXs to be comparable to tanks, I do want them to be far stronger than they are now. Either the developers enhance them to justify the timer and the array of restrictions imposed upon MAXs, or they reduce the restrictions and timer to justify the current inequities.
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Old 2004-02-15, 12:13 AM   [Ignore Me] #55
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Well,

All I can say is this... every time I get in my MAX suit I get several kills before being brought down. I don't bother with AV MAX units, just AA and AI.

With the AA MAX a typical "life" for me sees 2-5 enemy reavers dead and usually 1-2 enemy infanry before I'm brought down. This can be much lower in a Zerg when facing too many at one time, or much higher in a prime situation. My worst was in a tower and I did not notice the enemy Vanguard shelling from a distance. I died quickly. My best run was about 3 hours of guarding the top of an Air Tower. I shot down 72 enemy aircraft as they chased my wounded buddies to the repair pads.

With a typical AI MAX run I kill 3-5 infantry. My worst run was I tried to grab my MAX in a zerged spawn room. I managed to get it but the 20+ enemy troops/max units made quick work of me. My best run I got about 40 infantry kills with absolutly no assistance/repairs from friendly troops... every 5 min I'd "resuit" at the tower terminal to top off my armor.

I"m suspecthing the problems with MAX units I'm reading about here are similar to ones I've read about the Magrider. I hear horror stories of how the Mag can't kill a Van or a Prowler. Yet, with a half acurate gunner I just don't experience this at all. The MAG owns, you just have to learn how to use it.

If you don't understand how to use the equipment you won't get the results you want. MAX units don't need a buff and anti-max weapons don't need a nerf. Players who use MAX units need to figure out how to use them or die. Skill over a "free ride" is my preferance. Besides earning kills is much more satisfactory.
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Old 2004-02-15, 02:51 AM   [Ignore Me] #56
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Bad, please drop the "You must just suck" argument. It's been used time and time again and it doesn't ever go anywhere. If you want to continue with this please at least make an attempt to counter the arguments presented.
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Old 2004-02-15, 03:11 AM   [Ignore Me] #57
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The Decimator was a huge mistake. MAX armor should not be the 'easy target' on the field. No weapon is as deadly against infantry as the Deci is against MAXs. Don't say "Heavy Assault" because with camera-guided mode, MAX kills at 200 meters are pretty easy. Try that with a MCG.
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Old 2004-02-15, 04:10 AM   [Ignore Me] #58
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I would have to state that the whole situation with the way MAX's are right now is completely dependent on how the balance of other weapons is at the moment.

as somebody else stated, decimators are being owned by tons of people right now, but all it takes is a small dev change to something and before you know it tons of people will be ditching their deci's for something else.

I think a lot of people get frusterated with MAX's because they are in a huge battle, and when they suit up and rush out they get owned very quickly. Well hell man, you're in a very powerful suit in a VERY large battle with tons of enemies, of course they are gonna try and take you out first.

The thing people never seem to take advantage of with MAX's, and wehre they truely shine, is in numbers. Yea, a single max by itself will get owned pretty fast, but if you have 3 or 4 MAX's all staying as a group, there is not much that is gonna take that down.
Some infantry with a deci? how many shots do you think he's gonne get off before 3 or 4 MAX's are able to take him down? People also need to remember is that part of the importance of being an engineer is to be able to REPAIR ARMOR. MAX's are much more powerful in a base when they are accompanied by an engineer that repairs them, but unfortunately people don't do this enough.

And all you people whining about the certs you paid for the MAX, you need to think about it a bit more. You're complaining about a guy being able to pull out his deci and take you out.. here are the certs in play..

MAX: 2 or 3 certs
The guy who killed you: Rexo: 3 certs, His normal gun he was carrying: 3 certs, the decimator he killed you with: another 3 certs.

Thats 2 or 3 certs vs 9 in play there. And even then, if a guy just killed you with a deci, you obviosly don't have enough support with you (some guy fireing a deci is easy pray for any other ally with you that has a gun), YOU failed to killl the infantry with your superior AI firepower, and he just landed ALL THREE shots with a slow dumbfire weapon. Lets not forget that the MAX also has an autorun mode which is very fast and makes it almost impossible for somebody to land a deci hit on you.

There are lots of things that could have been done here to prevent that from happening, but that requires teamwork. USE IT.

In general, people have a general feeling that they should be practically invulnerable in a MAX. This is not true, but the MAX is still a VERY powerful weapon when used correctly, and definately worth the certs if it is played right.
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Old 2004-02-15, 07:19 AM   [Ignore Me] #59
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Originally Posted by Veteran
The Decimator was a huge mistake. MAX armor should not be the 'easy target' on the field. No weapon is as deadly against infantry as the Deci is against MAXs. Don't say "Heavy Assault" because with camera-guided mode, MAX kills at 200 meters are pretty easy. Try that with a MCG.
Heavy Assault weapons and Medium asault weapons and AI MAX weapons all have a faster TTK than a Deci vs a MAX... and, um, camera-guided mode? You are thinking the Phoenix, not the Deci. The Deci's "camera" mode is still dumb fire... you just can see where it's going and detonate the missile if you are going to miss to at least get some splash damage. You can't guide it at all.

Both you and Queen side don't even seem to know how the Deci works. So me debating anything with you 2 is moot until you figure the game out.

QSC thinks the Deci is a 3 shot kill that needs to be 4 and you think you can guide the deci shots in camera mode for greater accuracy. Did either of you even bother to use this weapon in VR before posting???

I hate to sound like that and flame somewhat, but WTF are you guys thinking? The fact that you dont understand the Deci leads me to believe you can't understand/figure out how to use the MAX. No wonder you get owned quickly.
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Old 2004-02-15, 07:36 AM   [Ignore Me] #60
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Originally Posted by Happy lil' Elf
Bad, please drop the "You must just suck" argument. It's been used time and time again and it doesn't ever go anywhere. If you want to continue with this please at least make an attempt to counter the arguments presented.
You have presented no argument other than "I cant kill infantry with an AI max" and "I cant live for 5 minutes". So the suggestion is to nerf anti-max weapons and lower the timer? And skill is no factor here? How can some people go on rampages and other die in seconds? SKILL and common sense.

How many times have you been fighting alamo style in a hopelessly zerged tower and seen someone suit up in a max and go outside? LOL Did the max suck? Should tanks, reavers, and everything else be nerfed to oblivion to account for idiocy?

So if you guys cant figure out the basics then so be it. You can sit here to your hearts content and rant about how max units need to be powerful enough to compensate for the lack of intelligent field applications. Fortunately the developers know better than things will stay as they should. You cant design a game and constantly cater to the least common denominator.
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