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Old 2004-02-15, 07:57 AM   [Ignore Me] #61
Veteran
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Many, if not most of my Decimator kills are at range using the Decimator's large splash in camera mode. It's effective at short and long range. If it's effective at long range, the time to kill is modified by the lack of the need to close distance before firing. MCG has no such option.

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and you think you can guide the deci shots in camera mode for greater accuracy
I don't think that at all. I think that if you can detonate the missile mid-flight, turning a miss into a hit, then you have a new option.
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Old 2004-02-15, 01:54 PM   [Ignore Me] #62
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Originally Posted by Veteran
Many, if not most of my Decimator kills are at range using the Decimator's large splash in camera mode. It's effective at short and long range. If it's effective at long range, the time to kill is modified by the lack of the need to close distance before firing. MCG has no such option.

I don't think that at all. I think that if you can detonate the missile mid-flight, turning a miss into a hit, then you have a new option.
Fair enough. Though splash damage from the Deci is less than a full hit. Personally, I don't really consider Decis a threat unless used indoors.

The way I play a MAX is...

AA MAX if on a tower I move around near the center of the roof never near the rails or on the "catwalks". This prevents most enemies from getting a good shot at me unless they are far away or an aircraft. With aircraft it's really a game of if they can get in killing range before I see them which is rare. If I see them, they either use full AB to run or die.

When guarding a base I never stand on the outer walls, I stand near the central area. Again, this makes me harder to hit by increasing my cover and the distance from the enemy. And again I'm in a prime spot to kill aircraft pestering my base.

In either a base or tower I keep a sharp eye out for AV weapons (the phoenix is the worst to deal with) and I don't hesitate to move if targeted. Also, I keep an eye out for Liberators and make sure I don't get bombed to oblivion.

What I don't do is stand on ground level or near an edge where infantry can deci and vehicles can blast me at close range. Unless your base has a shield module. In which case standing on ground level near a door can be a very good place to be.

As a AI MAX in a tower the trick is to stand at the top of a turn in a staircase away from walls and far enough over so that someone coming up the stairs can't see you. From this position a Deci infantry only gets 1 shot on you assuming he has the Deci in hand... or has the deci holstered... if not... dead infantry because if he trys to fight you will splatter him and if he tries to run you will splatter him... just a slight turn and you can track him up the next flight of stairs and a slight strafe to the side to track him down the stairs... it's brutal. Audio Amp and or 3rd person perspective are needed for this... People get spanked because 1. They fail to use cover by proper positioning while letting the enemy use cover. 2. they try and give chase to the faster infantry... this is never a good idea unless you are despirately trying to defend the spawn or CC.

A similar tactic works well in bases. Use the long hallways to your advantage. With Lattice benefits and or Audio Amp you should make quick work of any infantry headed your way. Usually, unless they know I'm there they are dead before they can equip the deci... and if they shoot at me with any other weapon... pffft! Dead.

What you can not do in a MAX is pretend you are invulnerable and charge vehicles or attack areas where infantry can have easy cover. Make them come to you.

Finally, don't try to lone wolf it unless you absilutely need to. A few MAX units in an infantry squad can be devistating... with engineering support and HA to kill Deci troops you are a GOD.

Ok, now really finally... never waste your time with any AV MAX. Never waste your time with TR MAX units except the Burster AA MAX. The Pounder is only good for doorway spamming and getting lots of grief. IMHO the best 4 MAX units in the game are in order are 1. VS AA MAX 2. VS AI MAX 3. NC AA MAX 4. NC AI MAX.

Also, I'm sorry about the hostile sounding posts earlier... apparently I'm a mean drunk Vet, you handled yourself well with your reply... thanks.
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Old 2004-02-15, 02:21 PM   [Ignore Me] #63
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Originally Posted by BadAsh
tactics stuff
It's not a question of tactics. I don't care who you are or what you do in a MAX, eventually you will find yourself against a Surgile with a Decimator and you will get hit at least once. Decimators are not difficult to aim, and MAXs are big, slow targets. If you find yourself against two or even three infantry and more than one has a Decimator, unless you're a Vanu MAX, you're dead. That's all there is to it. Two infantry with a Decimator = one pooched MAX. You can't put out enough rounds to stop separate fast-moving targets who're carrying what might as well be a little nuke in their shoulder aimed at you. And that is the root of this argument, which I sincerely hope you do not dispute as being inaccurate.

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Old 2004-02-15, 04:10 PM   [Ignore Me] #64
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Originally Posted by Warborn
It's not a question of tactics. I don't care who you are or what you do in a MAX, eventually you will find yourself against a Surgile with a Decimator and you will get hit at least once. Decimators are not difficult to aim, and MAXs are big, slow targets. If you find yourself against two or even three infantry and more than one has a Decimator, unless you're a Vanu MAX, you're dead. That's all there is to it. Two infantry with a Decimator = one pooched MAX. You can't put out enough rounds to stop separate fast-moving targets who're carrying what might as well be a little nuke in their shoulder aimed at you. And that is the root of this argument, which I sincerely hope you do not dispute as being inaccurate.
When dueling on Markov with some of the top players on that server someone thought it would be funny to pit a NC Scatter MAX against infantry in a 1v1 duel. The MAX won every single time. You are superior to infantry in every way with the exception of being unable to med/eng/hack. So inherently a MAX requires support and is not a lone wolf unit by design.

In your example you are taking about 1 MAX vs a TEAM of infantry... IMHO the team should win and when 1v1 the MAX should win and that is exactly the situation as it currently stands. Now, with team numbers being even... say 1 MAX and 1 HA infantry vs 2 deci infantry... my cash is on the MAX/HA team to win over and over and over...
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Old 2004-02-15, 04:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #65
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Originally Posted by BadAsh
When dueling on Markov with some of the top players on that server someone thought it would be funny to pit a NC Scatter MAX against infantry in a 1v1 duel. The MAX won every single time. You are superior to infantry in every way with the exception of being unable to med/eng/hack. So inherently a MAX requires support and is not a lone wolf unit by design.

In your example you are taking about 1 MAX vs a TEAM of infantry... IMHO the team should win and when 1v1 the MAX should win and that is exactly the situation as it currently stands. Now, with team numbers being even... say 1 MAX and 1 HA infantry vs 2 deci infantry... my cash is on the MAX/HA team to win over and over and over...
In your story, the only reason the MAX won is because of the shield. And pending on where the fight is taken, the infantry could win against an NC MAX, 1v1. MAXs are not feared as they are supposed to be, either Decis and AV should do less to MAXs, or MAXs armor should be buffed. Everytime I see a MAX, I think to myself "free kill", unless I get rear-ended.
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Old 2004-02-15, 04:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #66
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Originally Posted by BadAsh
When dueling on Markov with some of the top players on that server someone thought it would be funny to pit a NC Scatter MAX against infantry in a 1v1 duel. The MAX won every single time. You are superior to infantry in every way with the exception of being unable to med/eng/hack. So inherently a MAX requires support and is not a lone wolf unit by design.

In your example you are taking about 1 MAX vs a TEAM of infantry... IMHO the team should win and when 1v1 the MAX should win and that is exactly the situation as it currently stands. Now, with team numbers being even... say 1 MAX and 1 HA infantry vs 2 deci infantry... my cash is on the MAX/HA team to win over and over and over...
1 AI MAX vs 1 infantry guy with a Decimator and, yes, most of the time the MAX will win, but unless the infantry guy is afflicted with Down's Syndrome, the MAX will be eating a Decimator before the infantry guy dies. Depending on the environment, it's very possible for the MAX to lose because of the terrain or building design preventing him from getting more than a glimpse of the infantry guy as he pops out of cover to stick another Decimator round into him.

And, 2 Decimator infantry guys vs 1 AI MAX = guarenteed death for the AI MAX. Unless the infantry guys suck, you're screwed. You will die.

In your final example of 1 MAX and a HA guy vs 2 guys with Decimators, if the 2 guys with Decimators have HA, I'd give it a 50/50. The MAX will be killed almost immidiately, that's a given, but from there it's up in the air. Suffice to say, the MAX will not decide that battle, the HA will. The HA always does. MAXs are just free kills and the occassional annoynace to allow HA infantry to operate a bit more effectively. All that for a five minute timer and no utility is a joke. In any situation except when you're dealing with aircraft, as AA MAXs are good, a HA Surgile or even HA RExo is more decisive than a MAX. They can tear up infantry far better than MAXs, are self-sufficient/able to revive the dead in some cases, and have better survivability due to their mobility and overall lack of a major Achilles heel, as MAXs have with Decimators. I don't care how good you are with an AI MAX, you can almost always get more kills and stay in the field longer if you're playing HA infantry.

Originally Posted by Angel_of_Death
Everytime I see a MAX, I think to myself "free kill", unless I get rear-ended.
It always feels like a race to see who can pull out their Deci the fastest to get the kill. If they come from the roof one or two guys may get surprised and be killed, but otherwise I welcome the sight of a MAX indoors, because I know who'll be walking away from the fight.
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Old 2004-02-15, 07:14 PM   [Ignore Me] #67
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Originally Posted by BadAsh
You have presented no argument other than "I cant kill infantry with an AI max" and "I cant live for 5 minutes". So the suggestion is to nerf anti-max weapons and lower the timer? And skill is no factor here? How can some people go on rampages and other die in seconds? SKILL and common sense.
Bullshit. However I really don't feel like holding your hand and walking you though the entire thread so you know what? Sure Ash, that's all anyone has said. You're right. Now that you've obviously won the debate with your unassailable "you guys just suck" argument, stop talking.
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Old 2004-02-15, 07:39 PM   [Ignore Me] #68
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Originally Posted by BadAsh
When dueling on Markov with some of the top players on that server someone thought it would be funny to pit a NC Scatter MAX against infantry in a 1v1 duel. The MAX won every single time. You are superior to infantry in every way with the exception of being unable to med/eng/hack. So inherently a MAX requires support and is not a lone wolf unit by design.
A max is not superior in "every way" concerning max vs inf fights. A few duels in a manufactured environment is a pretty weak arguement to stand on. Set those same 2 opponents loose in a base and see what happens. Suddenly the infantry can take advantage of mobility and cover and in a REAL fight he would sometimes have the advantage of surprise. TECHNICALLY the max is superior. REALISTICALLY the max has a tough fight on its hands.
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Old 2004-02-15, 09:28 PM   [Ignore Me] #69
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Originally Posted by Happy lil' Elf
Bullshit. However I really don't feel like holding your hand and walking you though the entire thread so you know what? Sure Ash, that's all anyone has said. You're right. Now that you've obviously won the debate with your unassailable "you guys just suck" argument, stop talking.
This thread is about the MAX timer... and how people can't figure out how to survive more than 5 min in a MAX. The Deci got dragged into this as the MAX nemesis.

And yet, 38% of the players in the game have MAX certifications... and I see them all the time on the field of battle. Seems to me they are effective enough for people to use them. What else do you want?

If you make maxes even easier to use and even more available it will turn PlanetSide into MAXside. It already almost is with MAX crash teams swarming all over Markov. 40 MAX units and a single hacker can break a seige. You wanna reduce that number to 30? 20? 10? 1?

Gimme a break.
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Old 2004-02-15, 09:38 PM   [Ignore Me] #70
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Originally Posted by Angel_of_Death
In your story, the only reason the MAX won is because of the shield. And pending on where the fight is taken, the infantry could win against an NC MAX, 1v1. MAXs are not feared as they are supposed to be, either Decis and AV should do less to MAXs, or MAXs armor should be buffed. Everytime I see a MAX, I think to myself "free kill", unless I get rear-ended.
So the only reason in your mind that the max won is because of a max ability? I'm sorry, but max abilities are part of the max, so that's gotta count. Actually, the max won every time because the deci never made it to shot #2.

If max units were not so cheap in cert cost per effectiveness I might see some of your points... but a 2 cert point AA max xan completely own a 4 cert air calvery over and over and over again. And an AI MAX have beat any infantry combo out there... since about 51% of the players out there have SA (we will assume they ALL ALWAYS have a deci handy) this means that 50% of the infantry you face are easy azz kills that can't fight back.

So where are you really going with this argument? 50% free kills is not enough? Want that boosted to 60%? 70%? 80%? 90% What will make you happy? When will the MAX be easy enough for you to use it?
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Old 2004-02-15, 09:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #71
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Buff MAX amor to 1k. Then it will be feared.
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Old 2004-02-15, 10:00 PM   [Ignore Me] #72
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Buff MAX amor to 1k. Then it will be feared.
I agree. Not the AA MAXs tho. Reason I say that though is because AA MAXs are lethal and have a nice niche. AA MAXs are working as intended IMO. The AV MAX is the worst and the AI MAXs is worse than any HA Rexo in all situations.

On Saturday I drove to a tower in a Marauder, jumped out, hacked the door, killed 2 people on the way to the CC, switched to 3rd person, killed 2 more coming up, killed a MAX with a Deci that came from the roof, killed a cloaker and when some friendlies got the spawn room camped, I granny hacked the tower. The reason I was able to do that? I had my own Engineer repiring, my own cloaker hacking, and my own Adv Medic healing me? Nope, Eng, Med, HA, SA. Now thats fucking Rambo. The MAX that came from the roof? yeah he got owned just as fast as the cloaker. Ballanced? Not a fucking chance. But hey, maybe the Devs will consider these types of situations and MAXs wont continue to be a joke (non-AA MAXs)

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Old 2004-02-15, 11:03 PM   [Ignore Me] #73
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Originally Posted by Queensidecastle
I agree. Not the AA MAXs tho. Reason I say that though is because AA MAXs are lethal and have a nice niche. AA MAXs are working as intended IMO. The AV MAX is the worst and the AI MAXs is worse than any HA Rexo in all situations.

On Saturday I drove to a tower in a Marauder, jumped out, hacked the door, killed 2 people on the way to the CC, switched to 3rd person, killed 2 more coming up, killed a MAX with a Deci that came from the roof, killed a cloaker and when some friendlies got the spawn room camped, I granny hacked the tower. The reason I was able to do that? I had my own Engineer repiring, my own cloaker hacking, and my own Adv Medic healing me? Nope, Eng, Med, HA, SA. Now thats fucking Rambo. The MAX that came from the roof? yeah he got owned just as fast as the cloaker. Ballanced? Not a fucking chance. But hey, maybe the Devs will consider these types of situations and MAXs wont continue to be a joke (non-AA MAXs)

You:

Marauder: 3 certs
Rexo: 3 certs
MA: 2 certs
HA: 4 certs
SA: 3 certs
Med: 3 certs
Eng: 3 certs

Total: 21 BR 18 min to have this

MAX:

MAX: 2 certs (I'm assuming 2 certs cuz only an AA max should be on the roof) BR 1 required to have this.

And you really think the AA MAX should have spattered you with no risk?

Also, I'm sure you faught these guys 1 maybe 2 at a time not all at once. Not too rambo there if you ask me. For your 21 certs you earned the capability to pull this off, no guarantees though... that cloaker could have boomered you or one of those 4 infantry could have killed you... I mean their potential to rambo was no greater than yours... one of them could have defended off 6 or so attackers in this manner... So are you making the point that max units need a buff? CLoakers need a buff? Or that infantry should be limited to 2 kills before self destructing?
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Old 2004-02-15, 11:16 PM   [Ignore Me] #74
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Or that infantry should be limited to 2 kills before self destructing?


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Old 2004-02-15, 11:50 PM   [Ignore Me] #75
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BadAsh, if you're assuming that a person with a high br deserves to stand up against units that are designed to counter him, you're missing the point.

The game is about unit counters. Anti infantry maxes should lay waste to infantry no matter how high their BR is or how many support certs they happen to have at the time. For this ability they trade everything.

This is why I freak out in other threads when people complain about how infantry haven't got a chance against reavers, infantry haven't got a chance against tanks, etc. That is as it should be, and an anti infantry max, while not a tank, should be a formidable anti infantry platform. It's not. And this is because of the decimator.
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