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Old 2012-08-06, 06:26 AM   [Ignore Me] #31
Kipper
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Re: Naval Warfare and Potential "Continent"


I genuinely think naval combat has merit, if the continent(s) are designed right, so that there are some offshore areas which promote it, and some coastal areas which can involve land and sea fighting against each other.

I'm not sure on the wacky new vehicle ideas though. For me, you'd take the formula already set up by the land vehicles:

Quad bike = JetSki
Lightning = Motor Boat
ES Tank = ES Ship

They'd basically be as they are on land - similar if not same fittings and weapon slots, but with inertia, so they handle differently at speed.

A couple of additional variations might involve a larger boat that can stay out to sea and contains an air-pad for fighters, or one that can beach itself like a landing craft, and contains a vehicle and/or infantry spawn.

If you go for a continent that has lot of forest/jungle cover, then it takes deployed galaxies out of the equation (but you can still air-drop from them, or land them in certain open areas), so the spawning boats would suddenly be way more useful. They'd also probably be smaller than a Galaxy so harder to detect; and pack some decent AA in deployed mode.

You'd need to establish beach-heads to set up a mobile spawn near the target, defend your spawn and push out into the base you want to capture (or do spec op air drops / jet ski zergs and take a spawn tower on land with an elite squad).

Opposition would need to secure and hold the beaches; attack landing craft either from the air (risky if they are deployed) or from the sea (still risky, but
less so) in order to defend their base.

You could have fun with the environment too, with some natural bays, high bridges, inland rivers, shallow caves that provide cover from air, etc.

Last edited by Kipper; 2012-08-06 at 06:28 AM.
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Old 2012-08-07, 03:15 AM   [Ignore Me] #32
Duskguy
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Re: Naval Warfare and Potential "Continent"


interesting concept which COULD work without breaking the balance of infantry/ land vehicles/ air vehicles.

if we are talking a "continent" of mainly water it could be something like land on the outer parts of the map with a large lake/sea in the middle (which takes up most of the map) in the lake/sea there could be islands, oil refinery type bases/labs. the water covering most of the map could lead to interesting fights between air and sea units while on the far periphery, and along the (hopfully) numerous islands, land vehicles and infantry fight over bases. and being that the outside is land, you wont HAVE to take a boat to get around, it would just be quicker, although potentially more dangerous.

with the boat ideas, i was thinking:
- the leviathan could be used in place of the galaxy for the sea areas, having the player beach the front end of the boat while leaing the rear in the water to be backed out later, and while beached it could act as a spawn point, like a landed galaxy. for the guns, it could act as basically a battleship, although it would have the same amount of gun ports as the galaxy, they could be mortar based artillery, rocket/missile based, machine gun based or flak based guns to fight close land action, anti boat, tank, air as well as artillery strikes against somewhat distant targets (use the MAX mortar thing as a base to work on). would play the role of battleship/mass transport in place of a galaxy in the sea areas.
-then you have the quad like 1-2 person boat which would be intereting to see in waves.
-a light armored boat like the lightning. think of a 1-2 man patrol boat that is something between a lighting tank and a fighter. boat would be fast, lightly armored and have a gun that can elevate for long range engagements, but not air.
-a heavier more armored but slower boat like the predator tanks/ liberator. would be like a destroyer holding 2-3 people, the driver would have a midle, main cannon for ground based combat, a second player could be a right rear turret with 190 degree horizontal turning and then a left rear turret irroring the right. main cannon would be just like the tanks', while the turrets could be equipped with anti ground, infantry or air guns.
- heavily armored 10-12 person amphibious transport truck/boat with 2 guns on top like the sunderer. or perhaps a variant of the sunderer itself with a land/sea drive train, hich would make it slower on land, but able to travel and move slightly faster in water than the reduced speed allows on land.

OR a less radical idea, and one that could be introduced in addition to boats if decided on later.

the boats could be variants of land units. as with the sunderer idea of a land/water drive train. the tanks could be equipped with land/ sea drive trains as well, taking out the need for boats all together. and when this drive train is equipped the vehicles could take on a cosmetic change with a pointed prow or something. with the leviathan idea, you could simply customize the galaxy to have bouys under the base and wings and have it float. it could be a varient that sacrifices armor in return for the ability to float.
and being that these are all varients of the already designed vehicles, the water area of the map could be lessened, perhaps making the map have a bit more land around the sides and more, larger islands in the center lake/sea.

as to the complaint of balancing combat:
-the facilities would all be on land of some sort like platforms or islands or on the surrounding land around the lake/sea.
-you would have ground vehicles on the sides, perhaps a few spawned or somehow transported on the larger islands,
-infantry combat on the island/platforms (tanks cant go all the way in facilities, and neither can a boat). infantry combat would mainly be in confined spaces and besides boats, be the biiggest component being that bases can only be taken by infantry.
-air units would mainly be fighters and bombers although galaxies could perform air drops over the water since they cant land on the smaller islands/platforms, but maybe a good pilot can get them on the larger islands. and so air combat would be the second/third major vehicle besides boats.
-and finally sea vehicle combat which would be a main component with land combat (only infantry can get in and take bases)

edit: seems i had many the same ideas as kipper, which being that i only read the first two pages before posting is coincidental. but then they say great minds think alike...and the simplest solution is usually the correct one.

Last edited by Duskguy; 2012-08-07 at 03:20 AM.
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Old 2012-08-09, 03:03 AM   [Ignore Me] #33
Wandering Mania
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Re: Naval Warfare and Potential "Continent"


Originally Posted by Kipper View Post
I'm not sure on the wacky new vehicle ideas though. For me, you'd take the formula already set up by the land vehicles.
Well the "wacky" idea's as you call them are based off of real navy fleets so thay would work well with the naval battles. Also it would intraduce some new tactics and game play types as well as more fun.
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Old 2012-08-12, 01:05 AM   [Ignore Me] #34
Anabuki
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Re: Naval Warfare and Potential "Continent"


I think when it comes to naval units, it would be wise to model off current existing navies of the world. Of course, for it to have any purpose, the same problems that drive the military to design ships with particular characteristics or tactics they chose to employ would need to be present in PS2 (if they aren't already).

One of those that I think is the most important for the success of naval warfare, in the form that most of us are imagining it as, is ample travel (or sailing time) between continents (if Smedley's seamless continents idea is ever introduced). For the lone ship, it would introduce the threat of getting solo'd by a bomber or running into an enemy fleet, which encourages people that want to 'main' naval warfare to enlist in an outfit who can guarantee fleets with which they can travel, or at the very least, simply encourage more teamwork (which is good). This is different from infantry, armor and air in that they can still accomplish remarkable things as a single unit, but you hardly ever you hear of a single naval unit (apart from submarines) accomplish amazing feats on their own. It means that even if you're in the biggest, most badass ship you can possibly own, your chances of making it to the other continent in one piece are slim at best, unless you also bring along your fleet of support ships, like a carrier battle group .

Another issue that's been raised is "Why don't you just fly a buncha dudes over in a Galaxy?" There's already been numerous reasons proposed why having a naval presence is beneficial for ground troops when trying to gain a foothold of hostile territory (eg. a carrier could essentially become a mobile base off the coast of enemy territory, sending in wave after wave of vehicles and infantry). Also, a 'fix' for the issue of Galaxies rendering naval units obsolete has been posted in the other thread.

Originally Posted by Neurotoxin View Post
I feel like there could be additional limitations... expand the boundaries and add a few captureable ports, make boats the key for water transition. They could either extend the energy radius for the empire (think of Protoss nexus crystals) and maybe smaller aircraft only have 30 seconds of battery outside the massive energy radius of a broadcast ship.

The Galaxy is probably immune to these effects, and a Galaxy can even be fitted with a smaller energy radius module to help friendly aircraft get further from the ships. Land-friendly watercraft may or may not have the same energy limitations.

The energy broadcast areas would reflect areas that the server should focus on more. Where there is empty water with no nearby energy, the chances of seeing or having to render anything there is greatly reduced, so the server can essentially ignore those dead-zones aside from processing weather patterns in those areas.
Pretty cool idea, imo.
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Old 2012-08-14, 04:51 PM   [Ignore Me] #35
Wandering Mania
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Re: Naval Warfare and Potential "Continent"


Originally Posted by Anabuki View Post
Another issue that's been raised is "Why don't you just fly a buncha dudes over in a Galaxy?" There's already been numerous reasons proposed why having a naval presence is beneficial for ground troops when trying to gain a foothold of hostile territory (eg. a carrier could essentially become a mobile base off the coast of enemy territory, sending in wave after wave of vehicles and infantry). Also, a 'fix' for the issue of Galaxies rendering naval units obsolete has been posted in the other thread.
Also as stated in this thred is that evean if people did hot drop on an offshore platform the galaxy would have to land some where but where? And if some people droped in the water and drowned, where would thay spawn if the galaxy died?

My point is that these off shore platforms are the perfact soulition to the nessity of empire navys. Because galaxys may be a great thing in therory to use on land. But over water with a million diffrent things to go wrong with a "hot drop" a close by navy fleet would be the soultion.

The offshore platforms could also be verry valuble places to hold as thay could possably have higher resource gain rates than normal land resource nodes. Or have compleatly diffrent/new ones that I have heard spoken about.
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Old 2012-08-19, 08:10 PM   [Ignore Me] #36
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Re: Naval Warfare and Potential "Continent"


Water between continents - seamlessly - this is really hard tech, but our goal is to make the whole planet seamless and allow water based vehicles. - Smeds blog

Disclaimer - I know these are just idea's

Just the thought of this happening makes me jump around and scream!
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Old 2012-08-19, 08:38 PM   [Ignore Me] #37
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Re: Naval Warfare and Potential "Continent"


Originally Posted by DaClabe View Post
Water between continents - seamlessly - this is really hard tech, but our goal is to make the whole planet seamless and allow water based vehicles. - Smeds blog
They'd have to treat objects (landmasses/Points of Interest)+(Vehicles/Players) as 'zones' [spherical bubbles if you will] that are consolidated and split like chat channel navigation in order to do seamless.

Its been done with Space games and 10+ year old games but I've only seen Indie's messing with that type of 'zoning' recently and they really haven't had luck with it (I doubt they enough Technical Assets{Function libraries} and/or Personell {very different application of existing technology - Edit: Ie. its not popular recently and hasn't been maintained/kept-up-to-date with the rest of the industry} to do it).

Not sure whether that would be viable (would probably require a very different 'back end'/Server setup than PS1 or most of the server clusters they've done in other games - I haven't tried DCUO but I figure a Lobby type server structure to handle the individual zones with a traditional virtual zone setup being the foundation for it [handling most of the Maintenance & Administration as well as the Consolidation portion {its inherent to normal server setups to 'scale' usage}]). Since you wouldn't want a lot of Overhead/Footprint/Minimum-Size-To-Run stuff in a seamless world. You'd want as much as possible in the smallest pieces you can [so you can juggle them] while still able to handle/track all the pieces [you have to be able to consolidate quickly and that requires constant 'tracking']. Edit: You would need to 'synch' [load in] the various zones which would mean very chaotic storage requirements [Base + Differential + States] which have to be updated/synched every consolidation.

Last edited by Psyche; 2012-08-20 at 07:49 PM.
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