Knife = One hit kill? - Page 12

Werefox · 2012-06-14, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by qbert2

You can make an argument for realism in regards to quick knifing. I can't imagine a universe where you'd rather run towards someone to knife them while you both have guns.

Star Gate SG1 where one of the combatants is wearing a goa'uld shield that only allows slow moving projectiles through (stops bullets/lazers cold).

As long as there is a weapon of last resort, I'm happy to hold judgment until I can see it for myself. I am against certification points that turns a weapon into a one hit kill against its intended target, but that's really an a side to the conversation.

Sirisian · 2012-06-14, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by qbert2

You can make an argument for realism in regards to quick knifing. I can't imagine a universe where you'd rather run towards someone to knife them while you both have guns.

You're assuming it would already be more effective in the implementation to use a knife? Walking up to the side of an engineer on a turret and shooting them then knifing them comes to mind. With a proper implementation you can't just walk up and one hit them with a knife. If you hit them and it only did 30% damage and you sat there pulling out your weapon you'd be like "oh can't use a quick knife like that".

Originally Posted by Malorn

2) Last Resort - you emptied your rifle mag, emptied your pistol mag, the opponent is nearby and bringing out the knife would be faster and likely more successful than reloading the pistol or rifle. In this situation a quick knife is obviously preferred since it saves more time over reloading - but again, another benefit of a bayonette. Pistols usually reload quickly, and I prefer they are used over knives unless you are very close, which usually doesn't happen often. So really the pistol is your fallback weapon most of the time, not the knife. The knife is dire situations.

I really think taking out the pistol takes time. If people are at a range of say a few meters it makes sense to use your pistol especially if you have the quick draw implant. Quick knife for a player with say less than 30% health is only applicable at close range. Ideally it wouldn't happen often. Personally I don't want to hurt the use of the pistol in anyway, but if the player is a few meters away and at less than 30% health I really want to throw my knife by holding the quick knife button. That kind of kill is memorable and extremely rewarding.

Are you serious about the bayonet? I've been imagining every animation and implementation for that and it just hits me as extremely awkward. Also I find it odd how people are saying a pistol whip to kill an enemy is a more realistic kill than a nanite sharp knife basically designed to pierce armor at close range.

Originally Posted by Malorn

3) Humiliation. This is actually the reason the knife is used most in gaming because it's a humiliation kill and an e-peen thing. If you knife you got leet skillz, or so people like to think. To me this is even more reason to not have a quick knife because it cheapens the kill. When quick knife is easy then knifing someone isn't nearly the humiliation or accomplishment that it could be. Like dying to a beamer - if the beamer was good it wouldnt' have been quite as disasterous to die to one. You want to be leet? Good knifer? Then equip knife should be the only acceptable option. Keeps posers away.

I agree it is more humuliating to die to a 100% knife kill. I believe it shows what you died by on the kill menu. If it said 27% damage via a player's knife for a quick knife and 100% knife kill there is an obvious difference between a full knife kill and a quick knife kill. If we had acheivements the system could differentiate between the two easily. Quick knife could be labeled "Finisher" and 100% knife would be a true Humuliation kill.

The humiliation also has two sides. For the person on the other side knifing someone at close range is very rewarding. You tried to talk it down, but it is very rewarding gameplay mechanic that players usually enjoy a lot. The thing I look for with something like a quick knife is if the person that died to it felt like they earned it. If I'm getting shot and someone knifes me or if a light assault flies over me while shooting and lands next to me and does a quick knife for only 30% health I'm gonna know he earned the kill whatever way he got it.

The problem with unbalanced knifing in some games is you get killed and it does feel like the system overrode the gun mechanic in the game, but a proper implementation won't have that feeling. (Which is why I want to beta test it and play around with it first).

Originally Posted by Malorn

I'm ok with melee strikes and such but the equip knife should always be stronger than anything quick, unless it's a bayonette which you intentionally took over some other advantage. In that case you made a tradeoff decision and you should have a worthwhile benefit for making it. Quick melee kill is a reasonable benefit for that tradeoff IMO.

This is the idea I keep bringing up. Quick knife's use is purely for a finishing move if it's post-use delay is significant enough. That is equipping the knife and holstering the knife will be preferable for actual stealth and really humiliating kills. That and you'd need to equip it to use the secondary mode ideally.

Sledgecrushr · 2012-06-14, 07:30 AM

I absolutely just love the bayonet idea. It really harkens back to ww1 and earlier. It would be something that you add to your rifle instead of range, damage, accuracy or whatnot. This could truly be a one shot melee weapon and not be rediculous. And I just love the look of the long bayonet attached to a rifle. I think this could be pretty iconic within a sci fi setting.

Zolan · 2012-06-14, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Werefox

Got to be careful with 'x is unrealistic' arguments in a video game set on a far distant planet, using futuristic materials and where death is but a minor inconvenience :P

I wasn't referring to it's killing power.

I was referring to it's use and animation.

If anyone can post a video of themselves unsheathing a knife (from a belt I would assume), lunging forward, stabbing something, pulling the knife out, and putting it back in the sheathe, all with one hand and in no more than 1-2 seconds, I will change my mind.

You have to at least take basic "realism" into account when making games, no matter whether it occurs in the future or not.

Fanglord · 2012-06-14, 05:33 PM

I want a hammer.

Werefox · 2012-06-14, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Zolan

I wasn't referring to it's killing power.

I was referring to it's use and animation.

If anyone can post a video of themselves unsheathing a knife (from a belt I would assume), lunging forward, stabbing something, pulling the knife out, and putting it back in the sheathe, all with one hand and in no more than 1-2 seconds, I will change my mind.

You have to at least take basic "realism" into account when making games, no matter whether it occurs in the future or not.

I fully agree that a game should be internally consistent, but that is not the same as realism, which was the point I was making.

People can react quicker under duress than in practice. For instance, I did hear of an american police officer who was forced to let go of his night stick, draw his side arm, and put two shots down range - all before the night stick hit the ground.

I actually think that you could perform the action you describe in the time period - 1 to 2 seconds is a surprisingly along time when adrenaline is up, just need to chat to pretty much any professional drag car driver. I'd try it myself but I lack a knife and sheaf, so you could be right and it is impossible for all I know; but I also doubt you've tried it either *shrug*.

As an aside I was thinking some more (and chatting to my flatmate) about 1 hit back stab knife kills via a certifications last night. We came to the conclusion if that was entered there would need to be some sort of certification counter to it (reinforced neck guard armor or something) which doesn't necessarily remove all damage, but prevents the 1 hit kill - at which point I'd be more happy to include the back stab.

Jaenus · 2012-06-14, 06:38 PM

Wasnt in PS1

Methonius · 2012-06-14, 07:28 PM

Hey guys why don't they just allow us to throw the knives lol....Then they are just like bullets rofl...before you flame I'm joking if you can't tell. We could have headshot knife kills also lol.

Exidius · 2012-06-14, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Modern shooters suck for realism. They play out like everyone is running around without bodyarmor on. Its like you guys want a sci fi game where everyone is still armored like it was ww2. I can already see from todays military that armor is beating bullets. The Taliban has a terrible time managing any kills of our brave soldiers in the field because there bullets bounce off of our guys(barring a lucky shot in an unarmored area). This is the perception of war from fighting third world militias for the last ten years and its just not correct. I want more melee options.

You re right modern shooters suck in points of Realism, but on the other hand they have to. A game in which you have 2 teams one greatly underpowered with no body armor and old guns (well actually now that i think of it that sounds interesting if you juggle the team numbers a bit...)
But back to Topic, if armor evovles so do the weapons, sometimes the weapons are ahead a bit (crossbows, WW2 infantry) sometimes the armor (todays body armor, early armored Babylonian Lancers), but a knife ALWAYS wins (by bypassing the armor) IF there is no fighting back (Exept we talk about full body armor, which as the name says covers all Areas --> MAX)
But this doesn t mean that if you swing your knife at somebody it should be a kill. I d prefer a time costly one-hit backstab (BF3 like which left you very vulnerable) and an equipable fast shlashing medicore dmg blade. (If you re out of ammo and nowhere is new ammo to be found)

Sledgecrushr · 2012-06-14, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Exidius

You re right modern shooters suck in points of Realism, but on the other hand they have to. A game in which you have 2 teams one greatly underpowered with no body armor and old guns (well actually now that i think of it that sounds interesting if you juggle the team numbers a bit...)
But back to Topic, if armor evovles so do the weapons, sometimes the weapons are ahead a bit (crossbows, WW2 infantry) sometimes the armor (todays body armor, early armored Babylonian Lancers), but a knife ALWAYS wins (by bypassing the armor) IF there is no fighting back (Exept we talk about full body armor, which as the name says covers all Areas --> MAX)
But this doesn t mean that if you swing your knife at somebody it should be a kill. I d prefer a time costly one-hit backstab (BF3 like which left you very vulnerable) and an equipable fast shlashing medicore dmg blade. (If you re out of ammo and nowhere is new ammo to be found)

I absolutely agree that if you spec high enough you should be allowed to assassinate certain lightly armored classes. I also think the HA should probably get seriously wounded with an assassination move. But I also thing a super bowie knife should not do any damage at all to maxes. Just way too much armor for the little bit of force generated by a fist swinging a knife. This is why I love the bayonet because you put that super bowie on the end of a three foot long five pound spear you should be able to kill a max with a good well aimed shot.

Sirisian · 2012-06-14, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

But I also thing a super bowie knife should not do any damage at all to maxes. Just way too much armor for the little bit of force generated by a fist swinging a knife.

In the previous knife threads this was the general opinion. No one even suggested a percentage of damage. Just no damage, which for the class I 100% agree. Actually technically for damaging MAX infantry the developers are allowing us to place C4 onto them which is the proper way to assassinate them rather than a knife.

Ratstomper · 2012-06-15, 01:38 PM

I just posted this in another thread, even though it should have gone here, probably...anyways, I've been thinking about this quick-knife vs equippable knife thing and here's my idea...

1) Essentially have a quick switch button specifically for your knife. Map it to an easy to reach key so that it quickly draws your knife and lets you use it as a standard equippable weapon. Press the key again and it switches back to your previous weapon. This makes it so that the knife is quickly accessible to someone who may want to finish off a wounded opponent who they've rushed or have gotten close to for some reason.

2) Adjust delays so that unsheathing is fairly quick, but resheathing takes a bit longer (if you've ever quickly pulled a knife out of a sheath and then put it back, you'll understand that this makes a lot of sense). You've whipped out your knife and finished someone off, but you've got some time before you can switch back to your previous weapon (1 or 2 seconds, which we've seen is pretty long with the current TTK) and if he's got buddies who've probably noticed you knifed their friend, you may very well be hosed.

3) Adjust damage values to reasonable levels. Allow knives to do moderate damage (30% sounds good to me, but may need tweaking) on all infantry (no MAX units/vehicles) from all sides. This means that if someone wants to run in rambo style with a knife, they will probably die. You'll have to be smart about when you use a knife, because you'll die before they will if you charge someone straight on with it.

4) (most on-topic) Allow all infantry to cert into a knife tree that will allow one-hit assassinations if attacking from behind and using the knife's secondary mode. This will most likely be for infiltrators, but can logically be used by regular infantry (no MAX units) in guerrilla fighting and ambushes. Make it so the "kill area" is relatively small so you don't run into "Facestabbing" issues. Along with the sheathing delay, this adds additional commitment to someone who wants to assassinate someone with a knife and gives any nearby enemies at least some chance to respond to whats going on.

5) Make the secondary modes subtley give position away. In PS1, using secondary knife modes meant the knife made noise or glowed. I think for PS2, all knives should give off a faint sound when turned on. This acts as an audible cue to be on your guard and gives someone a bit of a fair chance before getting one-shotted.

6) (goes without saying) Adjust all values to a balanced state: Damage (standard and secondary modes), delay (sheathing and unsheathing), swing time, secondary-mode sound level and range. Test and balance. Test and balance.

- TL : DR -

1) Give knives a quick-switch button instead of a quick-knife button.
2) Make it so that putting the knife away takes longer than pulling it out.
3) Allow knives to do moderate damage with standard attacks (no 1-hit kills)
4)Allow a certification that allows assassinations from behind while using the secondary mode on knives.
5)Make secondary modes for knives give off a faint sound to give somewarning to potential assassination targets.
6)Test and balance to make sure all values produce a desired and fun knife mechanism.

Lemme know what you guys think.

Sirisian · 2012-06-15, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

1) Essentially have a quick switch button specifically for your knife. Map it to an easy to reach key so that it quickly draws your knife and lets you use it as a standard equippable weapon. Press the key again and it switches back to your previous weapon. This makes it so that the knife is quickly accessible to someone who may want to finish off a wounded opponent who they've rushed or have gotten close to for some reason.

This is essentially the same system people described that wanted an equipped knife also. You press 5 or whatever and it switches to it. The whole idea with a quick knife is it's a macro specialized option that switches to the knife, attacks, and switches back to your gun (post-swipe delay). If we have both a quick knife and equipped knife (which I and a few others have been wanting) then it allows the best of both worlds.

You might like this implementation at the bottom which implements both a non-one-hit quick knife and a non-one-hit equipped knife using the concept of delays to balance their use rather than different damage.

Ratstomper · 2012-06-15, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

This is essentially the same system people described that wanted an equipped knife also. You press 5 or whatever and it switches to it. The whole idea with a quick knife is it's a macro specialized option that switches to the knife attacks and switches back to your gun (post-swipe delay). If we have both a quick knife and equipped knife (which I and a few others have been wanting) then it allows the best of both worlds.

You might like this implementation at the bottom which implements both a non-one-hit quick knife and a non-one-hit equipped knife using the concept of delays to balance their use rather than different damage.

No, it's really not. That's the PS1 system where you reach up and hit 5 and then have to press another button to switch back to the weapon you were using previously. People want easy access to their knives, but it has to be done in a way that isn't quick-knife. I know what quick knife is and I know what the old style is; this is a compromise between the two.

What they SHOULDN'T do is make this system more convoluted or complex than it needs to be. People won't like it and people are what fuels the game.