Free-To-Play - Page 5

Skitrel · 2012-03-14, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Bonius

The only one I have publically available, but it's by no means impossible nor extremely tough.

It's all about outsmarting, outskilling and outplaying your opponent. Cheaters gets the skill-part for free, however they dont get the smart or play parts.

You're probably about to say: "That's a one in a lifetime killstreak, you were hiding in a bush and you spawncamped the shit out of the opponents!!!!". The answer to that is: No, No and no.

Smart public play is camping, hiding, cornering. This is exactly what I just said. What you suggested was that what was in the AA video was possible to do legitimately. No it's not. Not in the slightest. Your suggestion was that magical ludicrously fast aim and precognition is possible, it's not.

You act as if I said scoring highly is impossible. That is not what I said any you need to work on your reading comprehension.

Human motor skills have a cap, at that cap it all comes down to strategy, however, when someone breaks that cap there is absolutely nothing that can be done whatsoever. Someone cheating is better than anyone, period. There's no "smart play" to defeat someone that can see you through walls and aim at you perfectly in 0 delay, every single time. You're delusional if you think otherwise.

Here's the final of the cod 4 tournament at I44 from a couple months back. I bring this one up because I actually took part, though am not in this video. It makes me laugh when pub players describe concepts about fps play that are simply inexplicably wrong, and it really bothers me. Play at a competitive level, get the experience of playing at a competitive level, THEN speak from an authoritative position. Don't come in here quoting your sniper stats as if it means anything. It changes nothing about the fact that a hacker is infinitely better than anyone that plays at the highest competitive levels.

http://www.fileplay.net/channels/ise...phanmix-vs-tcm

End of discussion, because I won't take any further part in it. I always get far too worked up when it comes down to these threads and arguing with someone that speaks from zero experience as if they're authority is futile at best. I'd only be making myself mad.

Bonius · 2012-03-14, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Skitrel

Smart public play is camping, hiding, cornering. This is exactly what I just said. What you suggested was that what was in the AA video was possible to do legitimately. No it's not. Not in the slightest. Your suggestion was that magical ludicrously fast aim and precognition is possible, it's not.

You act as if I said scoring highly is impossible. That is not what I said any you need to work on your reading comprehension.

Human motor skills have a cap, at that cap it all comes down to strategy, however, when someone breaks that cap there is absolutely nothing that can be done whatsoever. Someone cheating is better than anyone, period. There's no "smart play" to defeat someone that can see you through walls and aim at you perfectly in 0 delay, every single time. You're delusional if you think otherwise.

Here's the final of the cod 4 tournament at I44 from a couple months back. I bring this one up because I actually took part, though am not in this video. It makes me laugh when pub players describe concepts about fps play that are simply inexplicably wrong, and it really bothers me. Play at a competitive level, get the experience of playing at a competitive level, THEN speak from an authoritative position. Don't come in here quoting your sniper stats as if it means anything. It changes nothing about the fact that a hacker is infinitely better than anyone that plays at the highest competitive levels.

http://www.fileplay.net/channels/ise...phanmix-vs-tcm

End of discussion, because I won't take any further part in it. I always get far too worked up when it comes down to these threads and arguing with someone that speaks from zero experience as if they're authority is futile at best. I'd only be making myself mad.

Misinterpret me correctly, so to speak. What HE is doing is completely possible to do, but what the CHEAT is doing for him is impossible.

What you're showing me is individuals playing that are equally skilled and equally matched, on a competative level. What we're discussing is in fact public play against unevenly matched opponents.

Hackers do have a major advantage over other players, yes. Are they impossible to beat? No.

(I've played alot of games on a highly competative level and I do agree with you on some points.)

Skitrel · 2012-03-14, 07:21 PM

The only reason you beat a hacker is because the hacker is attempting to appear legitimate. This is akin to letting the other side win, or at least letting them get kills an unintentionally letting them win just a little too much.

You don't beat a hacker.

Said I wouldn't continue, but I feel a bit cooler now and this is less dramatic than I anticipated.

The point I originally made was not that getting such statistical wins is impossible, but that beating a hacker, or playing to that level of extreme perfection, is impossible.

What sickens me worse is that I reinstalled CS:S recently and 95% of people are hacking. It's ludicrous. Then you attempt to call them out and it's "you suck, they're skilled, we know them" from all the other people that know each other and are in fact ALSO hacking. The cognitive dissonance among them is hilarious.

Not that the same shit isn't happening to BF3 right now, taken a break from competitive Battlefield because there's no trust right now. Even at lans people are running recoil macros built into mouse drivers.

Unforgiven · 2012-03-14, 10:28 PM

if you have to cheat in a VIDEOGAME to feel like a man.... im sorry that your life is so terrible that you have stooped this low. just accept the fact that ppl are better than you, and learn from your mistakes like the rest of us.

Skitrel · 2012-03-15, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

if you have to cheat in a VIDEOGAME to feel like a man.... im sorry that your life is so terrible that you have stooped this low. just accept the fact that ppl are better than you, and learn from your mistakes like the rest of us.

Nobody here is being called a cheater. This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread.

Coreldan · 2012-03-15, 10:14 AM

I have to say that if you think 95% of the people actually cheat, you probably are one of those who are extremely trigger happy at calling others cheaters, while in reality they would just be good players.

Even if the situation there would be really bad, 95% is a totally ridicilous number you pulled out of your hat. The game would be nowhere near that succesful if even half of the players would cheat.

The same thing happens in APB too, every now and then theres someone who calls out everyone for hacking who happens to beat them. Just about every above average player gets hackusated daily over there. Apparently my clan is a famous hacker clan, while being one of the biggest clans in APB we've had like.. 5 people actually banned for cheating within a year. (Sad cases, but they were subtle enough to not catch em from "the outside") Out of probably 500 players on 3 different servers. All this while the "researches" show that every commercial cheat for APB has been detected at least once, meaning just about every cheater has been at least banned once now, yet our members really havnt! Although to some heros we are still a clan of hackers..

Fenrys · 2012-03-15, 10:48 AM

@Unforgiven

basti · 2012-03-15, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Skitrel

The only way you're getting a 10:1 ratio in any fps is through hacking, hiding or cheaping. One or the other. I stand by my point you're delusional. The video can not ever be reproduced legitimately, ever. Period. There is no argument to be had here.

Nope. You jsut a bad player.

I get 20:0 easily in Tribes Ascend, depending on who i play against.

Redshift · 2012-03-15, 12:38 PM

Essentially if you charge a sub people will play one game, 2 at a push, also their interest is likely to burn out.
Micro transactions means people can play many games so your audience is larger. You're likely to spend a few quid each month in each game, multiplied by the larger audience that adds up to more than a sub.

I know personally i quit swtor after two months as i didn't think it justified to 9 pound a month, so EA got 18 pound out of me. Conversly i've spent 12 pound on TF2 this month, i might not buy anything next month, but i'll still be playing, so a few months later i'll prob do that again. So valve will get more of my money than EA.

Kriegson · 2012-03-15, 12:42 PM

Aimbotters proper are generally stupid script kiddies who pay for a hack and end up getting banned promptly due to blatant use.
Occasionally you might have someone who actually makes their own hack, and is generally impossible to detect.

The biggest issue is how quickly you can ban the script kiddies, and the effects on the community of the few you cannot ban.
If like APB, you simply do ban waves every month (Which relatively intelligent script kiddies will log off for, and simply come back on once their hack has been updated, or just make a new account) then aimbotters become a rather large problem due to their relatively significant numbers.

The effect they have on the playerbase is paranoia. The more hackers there are (even if they make up a small percentage) the more people that encounter someone legitimately hacking and the more people they will start to accuse of it.
Even moreso if they rely entirely on PB to do all the work and the actual hackers (Who make their own hacks) gain a prominent name, a bad reputation, but never get banned because their hack simply isn't detected by the system.

TL: DR
As long as SoE has game masters who actively ban people on the spot rather than in monthly waves or some such, cheating and the symptoms it causes can be largely negated.

Tehroth · 2012-03-15, 12:45 PM

I dislike items shops, but I can live with just aesthetics as long as they don't start selling weaponry and buy to win items.

Coreldan · 2012-03-15, 12:48 PM

It's good to note that the GMs effect in the end are fairly small too.

Usually if someone is blatant enough to be verified as cheater by looking, PB can catch them all the same. GMs are gonna make a really tough decision if someone is subtle enough with the cheats.

If PS2 is done right, all we have are aimbots and wallhacks. If the person cheating isn't stupid, they tweak their cheats (at least the most famous commercial cheats are very tweakable) to a point where nobody can for 100% certainity say whether they are cheating or just really good. Even an invisible GM can probably observe these cheaters and notice that he seems to know where people come from pretty often, but is that down to luck or perhaps a really good set of headphones that makes you able to hear foodsteps etc really well? Also, the same smart cheater will occasionally let people "catch them offguard" simply so people feel that "well at least now he had no clue I was coming".

That said, most cheaters arn't like I explained above, but the thing is as I said, the most blatant cases are caught by PB pretty much all the same, while GMs can't be any more sure of the highly tweaked cheaters. In the end, we have a bunch of really expensive but non effective game masters.

SGTalon · 2012-03-15, 12:57 PM

I think that the Box price is a big way to cut down on the hacking. If you have to spend $20-$50 on an access code you are less likely to risk getting banned than if you can create a new account simply by giving a new e-mail address people will do it just for fun.

I know people that go the hacking route when they get bored with a game and think it is their right. I hate people like that.

I also hate the people that think just because someone is better than them they are hacking. I have had friends banned from servers in BF and COD because they did well in a round or 2. And i have friends that cry every time someone kills them. Sometimes it is just easier to turn off Teamspeak

Kriegson · 2012-03-15, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Coreldan

It's good to note that the GMs effect in the end are fairly small too.

Usually if someone is blatant enough to be verified as cheater by looking, PB can catch them all the same. GMs are gonna make a really tough decision if someone is subtle enough with the cheats.

That said, most cheaters arn't like I explained above, but the thing is as I said, the most blatant cases are caught by PB pretty much all the same, while GMs can't be any more sure of the highly tweaked cheaters. In the end, we have a bunch of really expensive but non effective game masters.

I beg to differ. I'm not speaking of GM's that might randomly roam about looking for hackers, but more of GM's that can respond to overwhelming reports of hackusation on an individual.
Obviously this requires a better system for reporting potential hackers than say...sending an email into support and leaving them to sort through everything from account issues, to store refunds, to glitches and exploits.

I recently started playing world of tanks, and they have quite an innovative and intuitive system.
A player has some 3 complaints (A day? A week? Not sure, haven't used any yet) to use. When their complaint is reviewed, they will be rated based on how relevant or useful it is. Players who send legitimate or useful complaints receive higher priority, while those that send useless or illegitimate complaints receive lower priority.

Now imagine if we had a system like this regarding potential aimbotters. Someone who screams "HAAAAX" at everyone who kills him will have virtually no priority. While someone who is respected and has sent useful, legitimate complaints will likely prompt GM action rather quickly.

This would filter out the thousands of useless hackusations and complaints, for the handful of legitimate complaints and reasonable accusations.

Hrm, actually going to make a thread on this and see what people think.

NivexQ · 2012-03-15, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Coreldan

I have to say that if you think 95% of the people actually cheat, you probably are one of those who are extremely trigger happy at calling others cheaters, while in reality they would just be good players.

Anyone who's better than I am is a cheater, anyone who's worse than I am is a n00b. That is the creed of our people.