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View Poll Results: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?
Yes 47 29.01%
No 115 70.99%
Voters: 162. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-04-17, 11:27 PM   [Ignore Me] #31
Hypevosa
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


only MAXes
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Old 2012-04-18, 04:30 AM   [Ignore Me] #32
Erendil
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


Originally Posted by Malorn View Post
I think this poll is a bit misleading/uninformative because we don't clearly know how spotting and radar works in PS2 and it appears to be a poll in the context of PS1.

We know a radar upgrade for some vehicles exists as a utility slot (tradeoff would be flares or safe-bail or other similar thing), and in PS2 that may very well be an auto-spotting mechanism for anything under the radar's effects, and it might have the same restrictions that the mosquito had in PS1. Due to different flight mechanics and a cockpit blocking view of stuff directly below the aircraft it could quite easily be balanced.

So then the question is does anything at all show up on your radar that is hostile if it is not spotted?

Do radar-like mechanics auto-spot?

If the answer is yes to both of those then there's no need for aircraft minimap to be any different from any other minimap.

I don't think anything hostile should show up on any radar that is not ether spotted or within range of a vehicle with radar/auto-spot functionality. If someone has spotted the infantry, or the aircraft has a radar utility upgrade (like the old mosquito), then absolutely it should show up. Someone spotted it, the pilot should receive that information.
Pretty much this.

Personally I'm fine w/ these mechanics from PS1:
  • Automatic 2D (minimap) spotting is shared by all members of your platoon; so if one member detects an enemy, the whole platoon sees it on the minimap so long as it's actively detected (so if it's still, quiet, and out of direct LOS it disappears from the minimap)
  • Short-range vehicle/deployable-based detection systems (e.g. - Mossie Overflight Detection, Motion Sensors) gives automatic 2D spotting for everyone in the Empire, and it should detect any infantry moving or otherwise making noise
  • Enemy units not seen or heard by members of your platoon don't show up on the minimap unless picked up by short-range vehicle/deployable detection systems
  • There should be some way to block and/or not be detected by short-range vehicle/deployed systems. Not sure about 2D spotting tho (except maybe for cloakers)

IMO what we normally refer to as "RADAR" really isn't radar. It's more an interconnected communication/navigation/Command&Control system like a glorified Land Warrior system used by the US Army. People show up on the minimap when they're actually seen or heard by platoon members' bare senses and not just by an electronic detection system. Plus waypoints, floorplans, friendly deployables, etc are all marked as well. As such, any information shown on one player's minimap should be shared by all platoon members regardless of whether or not they are in a vehicle.

That said, people here have also asked for long-range RADAR systems for aircraft to be included in the game, like from an AWACS system. Something like that would most likely work differently than typical 2D spotting, and such systems should not pick up enemy infantry (except maybe MAXes). In fact, IMO no methods of detection that have a range longer than the size of the minimap should be able to pick up infantry, including such things as Reveals (unless it's really short range in PS2), 3D spotting done by platoon members outside of your minimap range, etc.


Oh, and as a side note for you old skool (read: pre-BFR) PS1 vets out there: Sometime in mid-2004 (I think), the Mossie's overflight detection was made active at all times, regardless of how fast it was going. Just thought I'd point that out since a couple ppl in this thread were under the impression it still worked only at low speeds. And IMO, for gameplay purposes I would classify the PS1 Mossie's overflight detection as something other than radar as well due to its extremely short range. More like an enhance motion/sound detection system.
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Last edited by Erendil; 2012-04-18 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 2012-04-18, 05:20 AM   [Ignore Me] #33
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


Radar != Minimap. Minimap blobs are blobs in your line of sight or that have been spotted by friendlies (this is usally how it goes, at least).

Radar is a method of spotting troops (friendly AND enemy) that you can't see visually.

Airborne radar in smaller aircraft is more often restricted to, or focussed on a cone that projects out of the front of the aircraft to help spot and lock targets on the approach, and its down to eyeballs, wingmen, and other aids to spot things coming in behind. (Larger aircraft or specialised AWACS obviously have a much wider view, but they don't really engage directly).

I'd like to see some form of approach/frontal radar on the fighters to assist with lining up attacks - by the time you can see something, it may be too late to line up an attack with rockets (especially if you're using speed as a defence). You still wouldn't be able to relay that information back to anyone except perhaps other air units in your squad.

A more full field of view radar would be an interesting thing to add to the galaxy as a AWACS / eye-in-the-sky for all the benefits and strategy thats been discussed elsewhere.

Adding it to the smaller aircraft could be do-able too, but it would be at the cost of offensive armament - a bit like the spotter planes in WWI & WWII, often they were fighters because they had speed, and they had their guns replaced with cameras and in many cases, armour was removed to save weight to gain speed and/or range.
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Old 2012-04-18, 05:22 AM   [Ignore Me] #34
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


Originally Posted by EVILPIG View Post
One of the first suggestions I made for Planetside 2 was removing the ability for aircraft to see infantry on radar. This was mostly due to the perception that infantry farming was problematic. It evolved into just plain making sense. It is easy enough to see anything running around from such a vantage point, having them on radar just makes infantry prey. To counter this, hand held AA weaponry is to be developed, but would it be necessary? We already know that cockpit graphics will be forced. If we remove the ability for aircraft to see infantry on radar, you can basically remove hand held AA weaponry.
Give infantry Stingers. OSOK for planes. AND remove them from plane radar.

Then, and I know this would be horrible for pilotophiles, but like in Afghanistan in the 1980s, the pilots might have to avoid ground forces more.

Which might lead to planes facing off against planes. Which I think is a great idea.
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Old 2012-04-18, 05:25 AM   [Ignore Me] #35
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


Originally Posted by Traak View Post
Give infantry Stingers. OSOK for planes. AND remove them from plane radar.

Then, and I know this would be horrible for pilotophiles, but like in Afghanistan in the 1980s, the pilots might have to avoid ground forces more.

Which might lead to planes facing off against planes. Which I think is a great idea.
^ ran into open fields in agile holding nothing but a gauss rifle and a 9 boxes of gold ammo too many times.
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Old 2012-04-18, 06:39 AM   [Ignore Me] #36
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


Originally Posted by SKYeXile View Post
^ ran into open fields in agile holding nothing but a gauss rifle and a 9 boxes of gold ammo too many times.
^is never out of a Mossie.
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Old 2012-04-18, 09:00 AM   [Ignore Me] #37
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


I voted No. But i think down the cert tree you should be able to equip troop radar in exchange for using some decent weapons.
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This is the last VIP post in this thread.   Old 2012-04-18, 10:01 AM   [Ignore Me] #38
Malorn
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


Originally Posted by Erendil View Post
There should be some way to block and/or not be detected by short-range vehicle/deployed systems. Not sure about 2D spotting tho (except maybe for cloakers)
Implants are buffs now so its entirely possible for them to have an implant that makes one immune to vehicle&structure-based detection. It could also have limitations like PS1 where you are only immune if you are stationary or walking/crouch-walking.

I wonder if we can have advanced implants which have pre-requisites. For example if we have 4 implant slots, perhaps we can spend 1 slot on "basic radar immunity" which only works if you are stationary or walking. Then you have a second implant slot which requires that implant and allows immunity even while running. So we can be fully immune if we want but it costs us 2 implant slots. That could be a significant benefit for a significant cost.

It doesn't even need to be the same implant, it could simply be an sort of stacking-buff where one stack gets you walk/stationary immunity while two stacks gets you complete immunity. When one implant wears off (they are timer-based) you simply go down to one stack.

Same could be true for xp boosts and that sort of thing. Spend one implant slot for a moderate xp boost. Spend two for twice the effect. It's purely additive but the tradeoff is that you aren't using that implant slot for some other benefits (like radar immunity).

Hrm, I should probably put this in the idea vault
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Old 2012-04-18, 10:06 AM   [Ignore Me] #39
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


Short Answer: No with a maybe
Long Answer : Yes with a but
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Old 2012-04-18, 10:20 AM   [Ignore Me] #40
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


It would probably be for the better if aircav had a harder time engaging (but not damaging) infantry
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Old 2012-04-18, 10:30 AM   [Ignore Me] #41
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


No, but, If a enemy has been spotted by friendly forces. I believe the hostile contacts should be available on radar for the birds in the sky to see.

I voted no, but I would be fine with them receiving some form of a radar down the line that allowed them to spot enemy forces below. They could limit it to vehicles if people are worried about infantry getting farmed.
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Old 2012-04-18, 10:43 AM   [Ignore Me] #42
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


I enjoyed the PS mechanic. I was one of the few that hovered giving radar support to friendlies.

I don't think it should show up for stationary targets.

If it pops up on someone elses minimap that doesn't see the target then it should pop up on yours too. Even if you don't engage the infantry, it is good to know that you shouldn't try escaping in that direction low to the ground. Being close to the ground is important for breaking AA.
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Old 2012-04-18, 11:24 AM   [Ignore Me] #43
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


One of the irritating features which have become extremely popular in modern shooters is the ability to scan for enemy players. In Bad Company 2 it took very little skill and in many cases set a death sentence for whoever is unfortunate enough to be within that tactical radius.

I enjoy having appropriate 3D spotting in some shooters in order to replace the lack of military discipline, though constant radar scanning results in some players spending half of their time watching their minimap for dots which represents little tactical skill.
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Old 2012-04-18, 12:25 PM   [Ignore Me] #44
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


I voted NO - I would like more realism.

Aircraft in PS1 and Aircraft in BS2 are like apples and oranges, similar as fruit, but different in taste. PS2 Aircraft have ablities that the PS 1 Aircraft did not have. They are more realistic in flight.

There is going to be a night and a day time. At night I could see Aircraft using infrared equipment as a side grade to detect infantry on the ground and show up on their radar.

In day time it should be strickly Visual Acquisition - or LOS info given by a Infantry FO (Forward Observer) via a Intel net to the aircraft or a lazer targeting system that points at the area the infantry are operational. This makes Infantry and Air work together just as in real life.

Once the area is given by the FO - its up to the piliot to take out the infantry. Give the aircraft a weapon thats good enough to kill a small area. Napalm comes to mind. And the smell sucks.

The Infantrys job is to stay hidden, and not be LOS to aircraft. Thats realism. Don't make the game so fast that people stop using cover and concealment, and then aircraft can't pawn them with out skill.

which brings up -don't make flora - Trees scrubs, weeds ect, that can be turned off by a viedo option. Landscaping should be equal for everyone for realism.

And Higby please consider this. What a lot of people love about PS1, not all of them, was the teamwork and working together. Bring back Air defense to take out the aircraft, but don't put it on a tank that has a main gun designed to take out tanks. The Skyguard was often seen moving with the tanks and other ground vehicles you had in ps1.

It would be cool to see the whispering death quad 50s, the Duster twin 40s bofors, the Vulcan tracers at night, the Adats missles type systems working alongside the Infantry as well as the Cav troops (Tanks). Throw in some stingers and you have realism.

But put an AD weapon on a tank designed to kill tanks. lol no room for ammo lol. It will never happen.

If your going to have airforce type units, then you need to have a Air Defense type units to support the Infantry and cav units.

Realism and team work thats the key.

And for those of you who have not seen team work before then watch this vid.

http://dangerousoperationsgroup.com/aboutps.html
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Old 2012-04-18, 07:19 PM   [Ignore Me] #45
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Re: Should aircraft be able to see infantry on radar?


I see no reason they shouldn't see infantry on radar, so long as it follows the same rules as every other unit. Aircraft are combat vehicles. Part of their job is to kill stuff on the ground. Infantry are also on the ground.

If you're worried about aircav killing infantry, ask for infantry to be able to fight back effectively. Infantry AA, EMP nades that are proximity fused vs aircav, and small arms that do respectable damage to them within a certain distance if they decide to hover.
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