Making this work - Page 5

Zulthus · 2011-08-12, 04:04 AM

All I know is I don't mind dishing out $15 for 3 games each right now. I barely even play the other two. You're all making such a big deal out of this. "Freemium" games suck, IMO. They're all boring and have crap communities (from the few I've played.) Regardless, PlanetSide 2 is a huge title and tens of thousands will be glad to pay $15/mo.

exLupo · 2011-08-12, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by Zulthus

"Freemium" games suck, IMO. They're all boring and have crap communities (from the few I've played.)

So, how you pay for something determines whether or not it's fun. Like, if I buy a coffee with a gift card it sucks but if I pay with cash it's cool. Doesn't make sense, does it? A study was run a few years ago to determine the average amount of cash players of freemium games pay per month. Want to hazard a guess?

$15/mo.

Funny, isn't it? $15/mo on average and yet they are are pulling in much, much more money than most $15/mo schedule pay games due to having much larger communities. Looking at the EQ2 and Runescape forums, the quality of the people playing the game is no different than WoW. Some people are great. Some people are trash. Every time some guy in a pricy car cuts you off, just remember that money doesn't magically turn people into quality members of society.

So it's time for you to back up your assessment of the AAA MMO freemium pay model genre. Please give a list of freemium games you've played that are AAA MMOs and provide analysis of the communities.

Zulthus · 2011-08-12, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by exLupo

So, how you pay for something determines whether or not it's fun. Like, if I buy a coffee with a gift card it sucks but if I pay with cash it's cool. Doesn't make sense, does it? A study was run a few years ago to determine the average amount of cash players of freemium games pay per month. Want to hazard a guess?

$15/mo.

Funny, isn't it? $15/mo on average and yet they are are pulling in much, much more money than most $15/mo schedule pay games due to having much larger communities. Looking at the EQ2 and Runescape forums, the quality of the people playing the game is no different than WoW. Some people are great. Some people are trash. Every time some guy in a pricy car cuts you off, just remember that money doesn't magically turn people into quality members of society.

So it's time for you to back up your assessment of the AAA MMO freemium pay model genre. Please give a list of freemium games you've played that are AAA MMOs and provide analysis of the communities.

Runes of Magic

Played this for about a month to check it out.

-Community the same as WoW, ask a question and the no-lifes deem you unfit to play their game.
-Cash shop makes the game unbalanced.

Dungeons & Dragons Online

Another game I checked out for a while

-Used to be a sub, now F2P and very boring.
-You have to PAY to get into certain areas.
-Much of the community consists of elitist pricks.

Team Fortress 2

Not large enough to be MMO, but close enough to where I'll mention it.

-Community is made up of 60% kids under the age of 9 always whining on the open mic.
-I don't like the game. I don't consider it "fun".

Global Agenda

...Do I really need to explain this one? At all? What a wreck.

All Points Bulletin

Trash. Was supposed to be an MMO, but was just small instances in the end.

Are you sated? I don't see why you're getting all worked up. I simply gave my opinion on the matter, and you pop out of nowhere trying to start something.

exLupo · 2011-08-12, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Are you sated? I don't see why you're getting all worked up. I simply gave my opinion on the matter, and you pop out of nowhere trying to start something.

Sated indeed. Actually making an argument is far better than your original "Herpy derp! Stuff I don't like sucks!" poke. The rest of the thread was productive. If you don't feel like contributing in kind, don't hit reply.

Thank you for expanding on your position. Even if some of it was hyperbolic.

Zulthus · 2011-08-12, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by exLupo

Sated indeed. Actually making an argument is far better than your original "Herpy derp! Stuff I don't like sucks!" poke. The rest of the thread was productive. If you don't feel like contributing in kind, don't hit reply.

Thank you for expanding on your position.

I have contributed by voicing my opinion on the topic of the thread, which was what would be the best business model for PS2. I also said "IMO," read again, "IMO, freemium games suck."

If I don't feel like contributing in kind? Lol. I actually contributed, better than what you've been doing.

Senyu · 2011-08-12, 05:14 AM

Rather pay a flat 15/mo for a complete game having access to everything than a free game where you have to pay for things you want

exLupo · 2011-08-12, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Senyu

Rather pay a flat 15/mo for a complete game having access to everything than a free game where you have to pay for things you want

Watch the Extra Credits episode on freemium. Properly done versions, like Lotro, don't stop players from accessing all content. In-game tokens can be traded for all content. Pay items that you can't get via in-game methods are conveniences (bag space, more cash, etc.) or vanity flair.

Not only are there ways it can be done right. There are games that are currently doing it right. I'd rather pay $0/mo for a complete game and having access to all in-game content as well as convenience and vanity enhancements than $15/mo for a complete game and having access to all in-game content and nothing else.

Free to play does not equate automatically to pay gated content. Can companies do that? Sure. Do all of them? No. People read "free to play" and assume a lot of things.

Price gouging
Pay 2 Win
Pay gated content
No real content
No support

None of these are endemic to the pay scheme. Do these exist in freemium and f2p games? Yes. Do these exist in monthly sub games? Also yes. One of the earliest and most egregious examples of pay 2 win was from EQ1 with a server you could buy raid gear on. Not a free game then. Not a free game now.

To be clear, I'm not lobbying to have PS2 be free tho I'm pretty sure (for the reasons above) it will. If it's $15/mo I'll easily pay. However, what I am arguing against is prejudice against a payment model based on outdated and simply incorrect information.

It doesn't matter what the topic is, if you are basing your opinions on a flawed data set or, worse, stating opinions as facts, you need to be brought up to speed so you can cut that crap out.

Kouza · 2011-08-12, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Zulthus

All I know is I don't mind dishing out $15 for 3 games each right now. I barely even play the other two. You're all making such a big deal out of this. "Freemium" games suck, IMO. They're all boring and have crap communities (from the few I've played.) Regardless, PlanetSide 2 is a huge title and tens of thousands will be glad to pay $15/mo.

This, I believe Lupo is living in a alternate universe where his arguments have any hold, Planetside 2 will be big, if it is advertised period.

Aractain · 2011-08-12, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Senyu

Rather pay a flat 15/mo for a complete game having access to everything than a free game where you have to pay for things you want

Almost every F2P game does this now. Its called a hybrid for a reason.

People that play a lot benfit from the sub based option and people who don't (AND PLAYERS ARE CONTENT! Valve knows this, so should you) pay for the stuff they want when they want it.

Without the f2p section most of second set of players simply wont play.

Obviously if you do it badly then it sucks but ANYTHING done badly sucks (did your $15 a month make BFRs awesome?). Its not hard to do f2p well as long as you make sure you don't sell power. Thats a pretty easy rule to follow (once you define what power is anyway).

exLupo · 2011-08-12, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kouza

This, I believe Lupo is living in a alternate universe where his arguments have any hold, Planetside 2 will be big, if it is advertised period.

"PlanetSide 2 is a huge title and tens of thousands will be glad to pay $15/mo." - Zulthus

In my alternate universe PS2 wil get hundreds of thousands of accounts if not over a million, f2p or not. If PS2 only has tens of thousands of people playing to pay, regardless of pay type, it's screwed. In my alternate universe Lotro, DDO and AoC had massive upswings in both player numbers and income by moving away from scheduled pay. I don't know what world I'm living in but it's one where freemium games are extremely profitable.

For more information about my world, spend some time on Gamasutra and get all you could want. If you wish to move to my world, a world where AAA titles aren't bleeding players and are making money hand over fist, you're free to come on over. All you need to do is take of your blinders and pull your fingers out of your ears. Choosing to ignore facts hasn't ever done anyone any favors.

Zulthus · 2011-08-13, 12:00 AM

Just saying, you're fooling yourself if you think Planetside 2 will get a million subs.

exLupo · 2011-08-13, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Just saying, you're fooling yourself if you think Planetside 2 will get a million subs.

While over a million is ambitious, hundreds of thousands (10x your estimate) is well within reach.

EVE peaks daily at about 40,000 simultaneous players (shown on login screen). Not players that are "glad to pay $15/mo". That's in the hundreds of thousands. How about TF2? It's at 47,000 right now and peaks daily at 70,000-80,000 simultaneous players.

You'd have PS2 aiming for the lofty heights of tens of thousands of paid accounts. You have no idea how this industry works. Tens of thousands hasn't been a goal for a major house in over a decade. Like I said. Do research on actual MMO companies. Look at the estimated player counts. Research the realities on the whole spectrum of pay types. With your current expectation, be prepared for an eye opening experience.

I used to be a freemium hater, too, up until the point where I let go of prejudice and started paying attention to facts.

Zulthus · 2011-08-13, 01:31 AM

Nowhere did I say tens of thousands of players is the amount of people that would play; let me redirect you to my post.

Regardless, PlanetSide 2 is a huge title and tens of thousands will be glad to pay $15/mo.

See the difference?

exLupo · 2011-08-13, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by Zulthus

See the difference?

There is no difference between the statements and I'll show you why.

Lets break this down.
1) You don't want any kind of free. This means every person pays $x/mo. You suggest $15.
2) "tens of thousands will be glad to pay $15/mo."

This leaves us with two groups.
$15/mo players.
Everything else.

If "tens of thousands" are paying $15 and there is nobody else then the maximum number of accounts is in the "tens of thousands" range. SOE will be pulling in $15/mo x 11000..99999 while every other major game in the MMO or freemium FPS genre, regardless of pay type, is hitting at least 10x that much per month.

By your own statement, the maximum number of accounts is "tens of thousands". Why is this the maximum number of accounts? Because if you have to pay $15/mo to play and only "tens of thousands" are willing to pay $15/mo (per your statement) then that's where you cap out. You're excluding every potential user who is not in the $15/mo bracket.

If that is not what you meant, please restate it a different way. Copy/pasting an incorrect statement doesn't accomplish anything.

Zulthus · 2011-08-13, 01:45 AM

Even if the maximum number of players is under 100k, the game will go on perfectly fine. Probably 4 servers, 10 conts each. Each cont can have ~1000 players at once. 4x1000x10=40000. This leaves a 60k player surplus if 100k players decide to sub.

Be done, as I am now. Not sure why there's so much hostility in the forums, but I won't be a part of it.