A Better Command Structure - Page 2

TheN00b · 2004-02-25, 08:05 PM

JumpDog, I know this isn't 10th grade Science class, but I still have fun dissecting things, so here goes

:

I said nothing of seniority. I said I was a CR5 for a long time, didnt say u had to be a cr5 for a long time to have ppl follow you. Not many do, ur either the kind that tries to lead, or uses CR5 for the abilities only. I respect all new commanders and try and help them lead any way I can.

Hmm, intriguing... If it was true, I'd respect you, but...

I'll be damned if some rookie cr4/5 starts getting renown simply by putting down wps and saying small things... he'd damn well work like the rest of us "good cr5s" do and earn the ppl to follow his orders.

I assume there aren't two JumpDogs on these boards?

So please keep your comments to yourself unless you truly know how I act. I do not "sit back and coordinate a large zerg", I'm always on the front lines leading while I fight. And I rarely ever use the OS. I admit when I was cr4, I'd use it every chance I got just cuz it was new, but now... It's rare to see me using it at all - only against an AMS or other target or strategic value to the enemy. I am fine with limiting the value, or creating a system where you could only use it against strategic targets... but not fully deleting that ability.

Hmm, why aren't you OK with deleting OS? It really is a bit lame when a commander, who with his OS could at least temporarily a zerg by killing their AMS, instead waits for the enemies to take control of the base and then uses OS, in order to get more kills. As for EMP, I honestly think that that should not be deleted: It's a valuable and essential tool for high level infiltrators, especially in these times of screwing over the silent killers.

i've been cr5 for a HELLA LONG TIME... and I know... u cant make them cooperate, much less lead a whole battle, not together t least. many just straight out ignore command chat and just get up there for the big OS

Ya see, I may be a wee likkle CR1, but I disagree with that. IMHO, the key to making them follow you would be to just persuade the more intelligent Commanders and most of the general population to /ignore them. That way, they are effectively rendered useless. Obviously, persuading someone else to /ignore someone isn't too easy, but if you could do it, it would certainly be worth it: It's not like the /ignored asshole could get CR5 back overnight, and if he kept playing the same character, then that character's chats would be unheard by most.

Angel_of_Death · 2004-02-25, 08:05 PM

I agree with most of what you said Badash, except for completely removing OS from the game. EMP should be taken out, and CR4's shouldn't have OS, while their smaller OS should be given to CR5's. OS's are usually just methods of kill-whoring, but sometimes they are huge lifesavers in a zerg to take out a few key AMS'.

PS will never have the level of commanding and organization as other games, but this might be a step in the right direction.

Gigabein · 2004-02-25, 08:28 PM

OS and EMP can stay in the game. The CR4/5 using either of them must be in the command room to do it though. As compensation he can drop it anywhere in the base SOI. That way it can only be used as to help the troops during base defense. I leave implementation of this idea to the creative stew of BadAsh.

I also think that the command room should have camera terminals that allow them to switch to any Squad leaders point of view. If they get a report from a SL, the commander can engage a camera terminal and get a live view of what that troop is looking at. There should be a small indicator for squad leaders when a commander is doing this, so that they are more alert to possible orders coming down from on high.

What about letting cloakers only advance-hack themselves a 1-way ticket into this room to "assassinate the general"? This would be extremely difficult since you would have to hack an up-and-running spawn tube.

TheN00b · 2004-02-25, 09:22 PM

Gig, sorry, but the General's alternate view/SL thing would never work, because of the huge lag involved for both parties. Sorry

.

MidnightDave · 2004-02-26, 12:33 AM

except for ditching os and emp (leave them so commanders have some effect on the battlefield, plus im working hard to get them so HANDS OFF! lol) all of those ideas would rock. One thing I would add is a building in the sanc that only cr4-5 can get into that helps plan raids, e.g. letting u see where the enemy troops are located by continent, sending out broadcasts to all SL's informing them of the raid, various things like that.

KIAsan · 2004-02-26, 02:21 AM

Command rooms would take away from what a leader should be doing, that is leading by example from the front lines. There is no way that a leader buried in a room somewhere safe, is going to know the actual rythm on the battle field, even with excellent intel/sitreps. Also, trying to lead a zerg from global chat is like herding a group of cats, they are going to do their own thing. The best cr5s I have seen do just that, their seen and not heard often. They will pass on sitreps that are important (like that tech plant gen is being camped by a squad of enemy). They also pick the next zerg target and give a short explination as to why (ex: Next target is the tech plant, once we have it, the enemy wont be able to field any tanks).

We don't need a group of leaders cut off from reality, dropping useless waypoints to confuse my platoon, and spaming crap like "the gen at the tech plant is down, somebody fix it" (we can see the map too, and the fact that tanks cant be bought is also a big clue).

So, how do we fix it? I don't think it really needs fixing. Yes, we have problems with bad cr5s. Yes, we get some cr5s running a battle that don't understand tactics. But, we also get some good leadership too. I believe that the good ones eventually filter to the top, while the bad ones get ignored and fade away.

As to CR4 & CR5 special abilities? I'm totally AGAINST them. I don't believe that ANY player should have a special ability that is not available to anyone in the game. Make them a certable item if you want (and give certs for CR ranks). If the CUD was say 3 certs, EMP = 2, OS = 3, then you would give Commanders the ability to choose what they use. Also, it would make CR4 & 5 players CHOOSE what is more important, HA or OS. I bet you would have some CR4/5s choose to NOT get OS and grab another vehicle or something. Would you get some BR8 running around with OS? Yup, but he would quickly drop it, since he would then be totally ineffective for the next few hours.

As to fixing Global/Cont all? Simple, if it is being abused, take it away. The CSRs need to do their job and stop these guys from ruining everyone elses game. If you /appeal a global cat fight, then I expect a CSR to come in and stop it. This applies to orbital strike Team Killing. That one should get you insta-banned.

Anyway, my 2 cents

edited for spelling

Dharkbayne · 2004-02-26, 02:40 AM

don't believe that ANY player should have a special ability that is not available to anyone in the game

Then what's the point of CR? And if you don't see the big red beam over your head when a friendlies preparing an OS, you deserve to die, ittakes about 30 seconds to fire, if I'm correct.

BadAsh · 2004-02-26, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dharkbayne

Then what's the point of CR? And if you don't see the big red beam over your head when a friendlies preparing an OS, you deserve to die, ittakes about 30 seconds to fire, if I'm correct.

TR players see a red beam for the setting point of a friendly OS. The enemy sees nothing. Likewise the NC see a blue marker and the VS see a purple marker to allow friendlies to see the area is about to be plastered.

BadAsh · 2004-02-26, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by KIAsan

Command rooms would take away from what a leader should be doing, that is leading by example from the front lines. There is no way that a leader buried in a room somewhere safe, is going to know the actual rythm on the battle field, even with excellent intel/sitreps. Also, trying to lead a zerg from global chat is like herding a group of cats, they are going to do their own thing. The best cr5s I have seen do just that, their seen and not heard often. They will pass on sitreps that are important (like that tech plant gen is being camped by a squad of enemy). They also pick the next zerg target and give a short explination as to why (ex: Next target is the tech plant, once we have it, the enemy wont be able to field any tanks).

We don't need a group of leaders cut off from reality, dropping useless waypoints to confuse my platoon, and spaming crap like "the gen at the tech plant is down, somebody fix it" (we can see the map too, and the fact that tanks cant be bought is also a big clue).

So, how do we fix it? I don't think it really needs fixing. Yes, we have problems with bad cr5s. Yes, we get some cr5s running a battle that don't understand tactics. But, we also get some good leadership too. I believe that the good ones eventually filter to the top, while the bad ones get ignored and fade away.

As to CR4 & CR5 special abilities? I'm totally AGAINST them. I don't believe that ANY player should have a special ability that is not available to anyone in the game. Make them a certable item if you want (and give certs for CR ranks). If the CUD was say 3 certs, EMP = 2, OS = 3, then you would give Commanders the ability to choose what they use. Also, it would make CR4 & 5 players CHOOSE what is more important, HA or OS. I bet you would have some CR4/5s choose to NOT get OS and grab another vehicle or something. Would you get some BR8 running around with OS? Yup, but he would quickly drop it, since he would then be totally ineffective for the next few hours.

As to fixing Global/Cont all? Simple, if it is being abused, take it away. The CSRs need to do their job and stop these guys from ruining everyone elses game. If you /appeal a global cat fight, then I expect a CSR to come in and stop it. This applies to orbital strike Team Killing. That one should get you insta-banned.

Anyway, my 2 cents

edited for spelling

I hear what you are saying, but other then the base security commander there is no need to stay on the command bunker. You can set the CWP and join the battle. Some commanders like to lead troops by example in the front lines, while others can be quite effective sticking with organizational duties and ensuring the right things get attacked, defended, escorted, etc.

EDIT: Also, on Thott's stats site there are over 650 CR4/CR5 players per empire... with 1 per continent being the Assualt leader/General and 1 per base being a "Security Commander" that leaves the vast majority of commanders to fill the "Field Commander" role and lead by example in the front lines. And, for the Security Commander role... you don't need one in every base... just a few key bases where the action is taking place and perhaps a few key bases to the rear... so your "cloistered" command structure would be 1-6 guys in the war room bunkers at most...

To my way of thinking if you had one player dedicated to continental force control you'd probably get pretty awesome results. If you've ever played StarCraft or any other RTS game... it would be cool if one player was the boss man and controlled troop movements and organized attacks and defensive positions while all the troops were player controlled...

Of course individualy controled player units will move where they want to when they want to... hence my incentive idea for engaging the enemy is the designated areas marked by condinental way points...

And as for controlling troops I'd use the SL command structure. If the general could right click on his map and drag to draw a box and be able to see SL's in that area and send them messages that would be very cool too.

I have tons of ideas and I need to organize them and come up with a revised version of this posting. It will be a ways off, but I appreciate the feed back so far, I'm takin good notes

KIAsan · 2004-02-26, 05:14 PM

Ok, I would grant those points Badash. But, and this is a huge qualifier, you will need more incentives for a group to follow the continental leader. If, and its a BIG if, they set this structure up, you would have to award a bep/cep boost of at least 25%. You also need incentives for defensive and support operations (which don't exist in game).

Also, showing all enemy within the base is too powerful. Your system would have to stick to the benefits already derived from interlink OR CE sensors. In fact, do away with the interlink ability and only depend on CE sensors. If the troops don't care enough to properly lay out deployables, then you don't get your fancy defensive screen.

Also, no way can this room be secure from the enemy. You have to let cloakers a chance to hack in and assasinate you/trash the war room. If it's going to be a combat modifier, you have to put in a counter of some kind.

Anyway, just a few suggestions to help you flesh out your idea. It has potential, but your going to have to make it really tight if you want the devs even to give it a thought.

good luck on it

Mango · 2004-02-26, 07:49 PM

I like this idea!!
I also like the idea of sending infiltrators to sneaking in the base and assassinate the enemy commanders

SuperBallz · 2004-02-26, 08:34 PM

Like It!!

I Think That OSes and EMP blasts, Should Not Be Only Used By CR4 and CR5's,

What about the SL Of a CR4 or CR5's Platoon(And only a Platoon) Can Request an OS or EMP Blast And Must Use Lazer Pointer To Mark Spot(Like Calling In An AirStrike). XP To All In Platoon.

Squads and Platoons Should Get Special Bonuses For Having A CR4-5 In their Group.
Like A Health Boost When Commanders Yell "Charge". Or Stamina Boost When Within 50m of Commanders In There Platoon.
Commanders Should Offer Something Back To The Troops That Help Get Them There.

There Should Be An Option CR6(Can Be Turned Down, You Only Get 1 Chance To Accept It) For Those Who Love Troop Support and Make The Ultimate Sacrfice For Their Team.
ex... They Lose Use Of All MAXes, HA, AV, SA, SN, MA Weapons, They Can Only Have Air Transport, Ground Transport, And Ground Support, Adv.Hack, Adv.Medic, And CE. But They Get the use of 4 Limited OSes(1 Every 30 Mins), 10 EMP Blasts(1 Every 10 Min). Tracking Bugs(Stick to nme Vehicles(1 Every 2 Hours),
and other support tools.

Just Some Thoughts.

noodles · 2004-02-27, 12:28 AM

I am kinda in a hurry at work so i didn't get to read the whole thing. But as far as the war room, I really like this idea. Just to add my two since i think that commanders in the war room should all share one map... by this i mean that the commanders in that room can all see eachothers wp's, command notes, etc. But each of their squads/platoons only see their commanders notes and wp's. This would give the commanders the opportunity to coordinate with eachother on objectives, but not confuse every squad member on which wp's are "theirs".

In effect it will alow a massive battle to be extremly well coordinated and executed, provided every squad/platoon follows their specific orders.

SuperBallz · 2004-02-27, 05:04 PM

Sounds Like A Goodie

SealDude · 2004-02-27, 05:19 PM

Someone said coordinating a zerk is like herding cats. Thats the whole point of this idea! Its so that you can have a good (not great) overall view of the battle so that it is easier to coordinate troop movements.