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Old 2012-04-03, 06:04 AM   [Ignore Me] #31
Knocky
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Re: Outfit member Cap


Not a one of us can truly say what tactics will work in PS2.

What we do know is that certain Outfits will be loosing their crutches

Their gamma hacks will be gone.

Their Clientside exploits should be greatly reduced.

Their HA/AV wielding REXO/Eng/Med super soldiers will be gone.
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Old 2012-04-03, 07:08 AM   [Ignore Me] #32
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Re: Outfit member Cap


Originally Posted by ArcIyte View Post
I know what you do, I was in SG, playing the same way alongside some of the best players in the game. Your success depends on outfits like The Enclave or Sturmgrenadier not showing up and kicking over the interfarm sandcastle you've built.

Don't get me wrong, you're good players. When it comes down to what really matters though, taking territory, you're not going to be able to defeat the zerg because you won't have the numbers to defeat the common rabble.

Zerging may be what modern PS1 outfits do, but you can't simply write off 5+ gals dropping men and simultaneously taking key points of a base as "zerging".
I'll reply to you Arc rather than Pig because not only did we play together on occasion but as you said you're been on both sides of the fence. I too have worked on both large and small scale, but from a command perspective, leading the old VS alliance raids with 150+ guys, to ruining DT'z handful of miscreants on a nightly basis. In, PS 1, in my opinion, the small fast Outfits outperformed the large combined arms ones, regardless of how many 1337 players one had simply because the smaller Outfit can out-manoeuvre the larger one. Sure if we fight you head on, you might take us in a straight fight but if I take my 15 and hack three bases you either have to split up on the fly, in which case I'll probably get one base because my small force, who're dug in, can probably defeat your divided one and if your decide you're going to take your group 'en masse' not only will you be hampered by the guy who can't find his vehicle terminal etc. but by the time you finally get there you probably won't have time to secure the other two...

Not that any of this particularly matters in PS2 but that was my experience in PS1 and I fought both with our against virtually every large Outfit on Emerald. One last thought regarding "superior organisation" (Pig's words) and PS1. If the tactical masterminds were leading the large Outfits and those such as the 666th had a large number 1337 players would you not have expected them to have an effect on the Outfit Wars back when the game was still populated? On every server the tournament was won by a small outfit. That was the time for "superior organisation". Mirror and I timed the platoon leaving the spawns and getting in transport and then drilled them to get it faster, second by second. There were battleplans, backup plans, every person had a specific role assigned to them depending on their particular skill-set.

My point is, speed kills. In PS1 speed was king and regardless of the hype many of the best commanders weren't herding around 70 squabbling children every night, they were leading 10 vets moving the map harder and faster cos they didn't have to wait for anyone. We shall have to wait and see if PS2 bears any resemblance.

Oh and for whatever it's worth, I think Arc has the truth of it SKY. I suspect the changes to the game will make life harder for small Outfits like FC and us. That's OK tho. A challenge is fine.

Ps. Krazey that group in PRG is an example of my point, we had good players, but having to wait for Kytana et al to support us was a handicap. Still, glad you remember it fondly man.

Last edited by Dart; 2012-04-03 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 2012-04-03, 11:40 AM   [Ignore Me] #33
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Re: Outfit member Cap


My experience with outfits goes far beyond the 666th. I have played in about every major outfit the game saw at one point or another. Not just visits, extensive play on every empire and I most always promoted to an officer position rapidly.

As for Outfit Wars, the 666th didn't participate. Outfit Wars came along way late in the game, long after our core had moved on to other games and after I had the time to micromanage the 666th. We were just in a casual holding pattern. Outfit wars didn't mean shit anyways. It was an artificial situation that did not reflect Planetside in any way. As I said then, the real Outfit Wars was fought on the battlefield everyday.
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Old 2012-04-03, 11:53 AM   [Ignore Me] #34
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Re: Outfit member Cap


While the idea of limiting battles to server-manageable sizes is important, the devs are pursuing this through other methods. Even if outfit size was capped, players would quickly find ways to link multiple outfits and communicate between them.
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Old 2012-04-03, 02:08 PM   [Ignore Me] #35
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Re: Outfit member Cap


Originally Posted by EVILPIG View Post
My experience with outfits goes far beyond the 666th. I have played in about every major outfit the game saw at one point or another. Not just visits, extensive play on every empire and I most always promoted to an officer position rapidly.

As for Outfit Wars, the 666th didn't participate. Outfit Wars came along way late in the game, long after our core had moved on to other games and after I had the time to micromanage the 666th. We were just in a casual holding pattern. Outfit wars didn't mean shit anyways. It was an artificial situation that did not reflect Planetside in any way. As I said then, the real Outfit Wars was fought on the battlefield everyday.
It's funny that particular opinion of Outfit Wars is held by every Outfit Leader who was unable to participate... Regardless, the tournament had massive issues however it did offer a chance for commanders and clans to put their money where their mouth was, in an isolated situation. To show off their superior organisation, if you like...

And you didn't play in EVERY major Outfit; you never ran with us, muchless became a member.
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Old 2012-04-03, 02:14 PM   [Ignore Me] #36
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Re: Outfit member Cap


Originally Posted by Dart View Post
It's funny that particular opinion of Outfit Wars is held by every Outfit Leader who was unable to participate... Regardless, the tournament had massive issues however it did offer a chance for commanders and clans to put their money where their mouth was, in an isolated situation. To show off their superior organisation, if you like...

And you didn't play in EVERY major Outfit; you never ran with us, muchless became a member.
I suggest some English lessons as I clearly did not say "EVERY". You also have no idea who the many characters I played under are. From my multitude of CR5s on all empires to my many others. I only allowed 1 CR5 from each empire be known to everyone. The rest of my alts were all either for private enjoyment of the game or for gaining insight into how other outfits and empires on other servers functioned. Please don't react with ignorance.

*EDIT* Also, I did play in Outfit Wars, so you are incorrect about that as well.
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Last edited by EVILPIG; 2012-04-03 at 02:15 PM.
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Click here to go to the next VIP post in this thread.   Old 2012-04-03, 02:36 PM   [Ignore Me] #37
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Re: Outfit member Cap


Outfit wars are a joke. I get how they add value to an otherwise dead game, and I get why some people want them for epeen measurement, but the greatness of Planetside was it's MMO-ness and its persistent world.

You can't measure outfits against each other because they specialize in different things. Apples and Oranges. How do you measure paratroopers vs an outfit specializing in armor and ground support? You can't, and you don't need to because each plays their part in the war.

When you take out the rest of the war you create a competitive environment that isn't Planetside, thus rendering any result of "outfit wars" meaningless. The Outfit wars was a different scenario, where different skillsets and tactics would prevail - unlike real Planetside where many more factors and circumstances exist.

War has a bigger picture - resources, territory, continent-wide strategy, and adaptation to the ambiguity of war. That is Planetside. Each outfit has their own role in that mess, whether it is how efficiently they kill or how they play the metagame and cripple an opposing empire's resources or production capacity. Maybe they bring air support or armor, and because of those things territory can be captured.

Trying to put every outfit into a fabricated scenario to see which outfit is best is not measuring the effectiveness of an outfit at Planetside - it's measuring the outfit's effectiveness in that specific scenario that will never occur naturally in Planetside. It's also a scenario that has no significance in the "big picture" of what's going on around the world on different continents. Sometimes a delay is a victory. Sometimes you don't fight even odds. Sometimes your objective isn't the same as your opponent. Outift wars measure none of these things, making it a joke in my eyes. Purely an epeen measurement for outfits clinging to a dead game. That's fine, but don't make it out to be more than it is. If you want instanced scenarios of clan matches...well Battlefield and COD offers that for you. Have fun!

Me, I like the metagame and the massive persistent world and the strategy elements and the unknowns and the ambiguity. Dealing with all that and making a difference is what makes a truly great Planetside outfit and player.
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Old 2012-04-03, 02:39 PM   [Ignore Me] #38
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Re: Outfit member Cap


I've observed that only insignificant outfits care about outfit wars. If I want to do an organized arena style match I'd do it in a game designed for such a thing and not PlanetSide.
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Old 2012-04-03, 02:55 PM   [Ignore Me] #39
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Re: Outfit member Cap


Originally Posted by SKYeXile View Post
then you will just see:

The Enclave
The Envlave Air Squad
The Enclave X
XX The Enclave XX
The Enclave XXth battalion

etc...
Exactly.
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Old 2012-04-03, 02:59 PM   [Ignore Me] #40
Kilmoran
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Re: Outfit member Cap


Originally Posted by EVILPIG View Post
I suggest some English lessons as I clearly did not say "EVERY". You also have no idea who the many characters I played under are. From my multitude of CR5s on all empires to my many others. I only allowed 1 CR5 from each empire be known to everyone. The rest of my alts were all either for private enjoyment of the game or for gaining insight into how other outfits and empires on other servers functioned. Please don't react with ignorance.

*EDIT* Also, I did play in Outfit Wars, so you are incorrect about that as well.
Correct me if i'm wrong... but did the Devil Dogs earn some special merit for doing something. I tend to recall some outfit did at one point... I apologize if i remember incorrectly.
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Old 2012-04-03, 03:05 PM   [Ignore Me] #41
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Re: Outfit member Cap


Coming from an outfit that both the warring sides here would probably consider useless, a predominately sniping oriented outfit, I find this discussion amusing. What people seem to forget is that what happened in the game was truly the sum of its parts.

By which I mean to say all sorts of different outfits did different things that contributed to not only an individual empires success, but to the gameplay experience for everyone.

As Malorn quite rightly pointed out, trying to exclusively measure worth seems pointless in the grand scale. Every player and outfit had a role to play regardless of their ability, fame or efficiency. Exxon-1 is a good example, their support play (particularly in vehicle fights) made them a prime target. Were they as well known as other outfits? No. Did they make a big difference? Hell yeah! Were they good players? Hell if I know!

To some extent each empire was like a sports team. Sure you had your star players that made clutch plays which people tended to remember but you also had a lot of the grunt work being done by the rest of the team who possibly didn't get the fame for lack of individualistic achievement.

Ultimately I'm grateful that the original game allowed for diverse different play styles to contribute towards the same goal. I'd be disappointed if there ended up being a "right" format that everyone aspired to.
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Old 2012-04-03, 03:20 PM   [Ignore Me] #42
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Re: Outfit member Cap


Originally Posted by Kilmoran View Post
Correct me if i'm wrong... but did the Devil Dogs earn some special merit for doing something. I tend to recall some outfit did at one point... I apologize if i remember incorrectly.
Yes.
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Click here to go to the next VIP post in this thread.   Old 2012-04-03, 03:35 PM   [Ignore Me] #43
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Re: Outfit member Cap


On the effectiveness of large vs small. Size says nothing about organization. I've seen horribly organized small outfits, and well organized large outfits. Size does not guarantee skill.

Having had the prototypical rapid response leetfit in PS1 (I founded and ran Liberty, NC Emerald back in the prime of Planetside), I know how these outfits survive. I know how they operate. And I have had some insights over the many years of running such an outfit in not just Planetside, but also WoW, EVE, and WAR.

These outfits are capable of great feats in PS1, but only because the mechanics of PS1 allow it.

1) Compressed Specialization

In order for a small group of players to stand a chance against a larger number of foes they must be efficient and compress specialization. In PS1 this was possible due to efficient management of the certs a group took. As the game expanded and more and more cert points became available, this further helped the smaller outfits and allowed them to do more with less people. This created essentially the "one-man-army" capable of doing anything. Put several such players together and you have a strong force. This is precisely what I did with Liberty. And it worked, in part, thanks to the compressed specialization that PS1 offered and the increase in cert points over time and the erosion of necessary specialization.

In PS2 this will be much harder for small units to achieve because specialization cannot be compressed. The class system prohibits that. You can't run around with everyone being a medic and an AV soldier and a hacker and a heavy assault. You have to pick roles. That means teamwork becomes a LOT more important - and organization does too. It also means that size becomes relevant because a single player might be the only medic on a small squad. They might completely lack a class. If they dont' properly spread out the specialization they will have weaknesses which groups can exploit. For example, if they lack AV, MAX will be a serious problem, unlike PS1 where every soldier carried decis.


2) Defending was Easy

In PS1 you could do great feats, especially with defending, with a small number of players. Attacking a base was a lot harder than defending it. As a defender all you had to do was secure the spawn room, and the only spawn points of the attackers were an AMS outdoors or a tower. It took a lot of manpower to secure all of those locations simultaneously. So a force of 30 might put 5-7 in the tower, 20 in the base, and 2 or so guarding their AMS in a skyguard or AA max or aircraft. Those in the base would be split among defending the CC and the spawn room because they had to. So now this force of 30 was highly divided in order to secure the hack. Enter small group of a single squad. They can easily overpower the tower defenders. With air cav they can easily destroy any AMS and cut off reinforcements. They could hack out an AMS of their own to add insult to injury. Now the attackers are down a third of their force and unable to get reinforcements while defenders hold two spawn points. Now that squad pushes into the spawn room and/or generator if necessary, once again fighting only a fraction of the true attacking force and cutting down their number some more. If they respond to the spawn room attack they could end up losing the CC so they need to keep a reasonable number of defenders there. Once the spawn tubes are up it's effectively game over, as the squad of 10 is now respawning in the base and the attackers are down a huge number of men with no ability to respawn. Eventually the CC defense gets chiseled away. After a while we started to see larger outfits not even bother defending spawn points and just kept all of their force together guarding CC and possibly spawn room. Still advantage is to the defenders who can leverage the spawn room to chisel away at the attackers in the CC.

There you have a surgical operation where a small group of 10 just "owned" a group of 30. Even if the group of 30 had more organization. The mechanics of Planetside favored resecures over hacks. Its even worse for defending a base like an Interlink where you have the spawn room from the start. It was a killfarm for the killwhores as attacking was once again very hard to do, but easy to defend and rank up kills.

Stopping hacks and defending bases like that could sometimes stop entire invasions into a continent because that's how they usually began. That's why we started doing that, partially because we could do it. And of course getting the fame of being great at resecures helps you recruit more killwhores because they see the success and great things you do. That's vital for the survival of a small outfit. And so it continues, with these small groups skirting the main zergs and fighting at bases and towers on the periphery of the battle, influencing things as only a small outfit could. And of course those small outfits have to talk trash and primp themselves up in order to maintain their status as "the best outfit" so they continue to attract killwhores. I know this system well, I've been running it for years across multiple games.

Now what of Planetside 2? Well we know a few things that work against small outfits doing the great feats that they did in PS1. Much like the mechanics of PS1 favored small outfits, the mechanics of PS2 appear to be not so favorable.

* Bases have 5-7 capture points.
Higby described them as "control nodes" that fight for influence over the base. That sounds like a Tug-of-war type system, not a simple hack-once-and-you're-done. That does not favor small outfits. While small outfits might be able to attack any single capture point and contribute, they won't be singlehandedly reversing it like PS1. They would need to wipe out all of the capture points and then maintain a hold over them (which would require them to split up). The most likely outcome is that small outfits will band together and each take different capture points, rendering them as effectively the same as a large outfit that sent different squads to different objectives. Only a large outfit has the advantage of better coordination and not having to negotiate alliances and other crap like that and deal with other outfits not cooperating with the plan. Its harder to organize like that than if they were in the same outfit.

* Bases have capturable spawn rooms
This one is huge. Unlike PS1 where attackers had to rely on AMS and the tower and the defenders always had the repair-spawnroom option, PS2 gives the attackers the ability to capture and use the spawn room. That gives the attackers an anchor in the base and will make uprooting a larger force much, much harder.

* Squads have squad-spawn
Most of the bases have outdoor areas, meaning squad spawn is an option to keep squads alive. So eliminating squad from the base is going to be harder. This helps the small outfits, but I think it helps the bigger ones more. A larger outfit could for example cross-pollinate its squads so each squad could be a spawn point for another squad. Eliminating one squad would cause it to relocate elsewhere. It is one tactic that will be hard for small outfits to mirror, and it is something innately easy with a larger outfit to implement.

* Bases are outdoor urban areas
The typical tactic of PS1 was air-whore with air cav and clear out AMS and the courtyard, then bail in and retake the interior of an area. Since the interior and exterior are the same only there's lots of cover, simple air whoring will not be enough to clear out a squad, which means teh small outfits have to choose whether they are going to stay in their aircraft and let the hack go through and try to farm kills (which many may do), or ditch the aircraft and try to save the cap. Whatever decision they make makes them vulnerable to the other. If they stay in the air over an urban area, infantry-based AA and MAX-based AA will eventually creep up and attack them (remember infils can hack so they can allow squad mates to swap out loadouts to handle the aircraft). IF they bail then they are then vulnerable to any attacking aircraft that may be supporting the capture attempt.

* Lack of choke points.
The bases from PS1 often had 2-4 major choke points, with towers having mainly 1. This allowed a small force to defend and attack (using grenades and other efficient weaponry) very effectively. The bases in PS2 clearly have a much more open layout. Add to that Light Assault, which can bypass what barriers exist, jump over buildings & walls, etc and you won't have anything like the interfarms that exist in PS1.

* No 3rd person
Ya 3rd person was quite a crutch that allowed someone defending a position a big advantage. That ain't there anymore and good riddance.

* Different AMS mechanic
Lets not forget that Galaxies are the new AMS, and they are no longer cloaked. This too favored small groups in PS1 where a single person could pull an AMS, park it and rely on its cloaking shield to protect it and secure the spawn point. When you need to park a galaxy it isn't going to defend itself. That means to secure the spawn point you need active defenders around that galaxy, which once again requires more manpower.

* More AA options
Air cav was the bread and butter of the leetfits in PS1, to the point where they almost never pulled tanks because aircraft were always more efficient. And tanks couldnt' defend against aircraft. In PS2, tanks are 1-man vehicles making them more viable and they can pack optional AA guns making them capable of defending against aircraft. Lightnings fill the skyguard role as the most viable AA as well, plus there are infantry-based AA options. While we won't have every TR running around with a striker, we can bet these AA guns are going to be effective at what they do and if a group starts running lots of aircraft you will see the enemy adapting by having more AA guns.

Between the attackers having more spawn options, larger outfits having more spawn options, the capture method being a tug-of-war type thing and not a simple one-shot hack, and having a more exposed and urban defensive environment its going to be a lot harder for a small group to be resecure heroes or adequately defend bases like they could do so well in PS2.


Not only does this mean it'll be hard for a small outfit to singlehandedly retake a facility, but it means they'll have a very hard time capturing one without help. If any defenders show up they're sort of screwed because they need to hold multiple strategic points and they don't have the manpower to do it sufficiently.

Does this mean small outfits are worthless and useless? Not at all, and I'm sure the new outposts which are smaller and likely easier to cap than a facility will be prime places for smaller outfits to make their mark. But are they going to be the heroes that come in against all odds, wipe out a larger force and save the day? No, I dont' see that happening. Highly unlikely.

The big message here is things that worked well in PS1 may not work well at all in PS2. From what we know so far I see capture mechanics being very different. The small leetfits that thrived in PS1 will need to do some rough adaptation if they wish to survive in PS2. If they relied on a cult of eliteness that might well be eroded quickly if they don't find new niches to occupy in the PS2 world. The likely niches I see are capturing and defending fringe territories which dont' have some of the strict capture requirements of facilities. They'll still have their place, but it will be different and not as influential as it was in PS1. Smaller outfits could specialize too in things like air cav and avoid capturing territory all together. I see this as a tempting option for many of them.

Over my years I've seen the merit of a larger and highly organized & disciplined force capable of doing multiple objectives and making a real difference. That's why I merged my awesome leetfit with the Enclave. Together stronger than either alone with strong leadership and superb organization. Ready to face the brave new world and adapt to the new mechanics of PS2.
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Last edited by Malorn; 2012-04-03 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 2012-04-03, 04:50 PM   [Ignore Me] #44
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Re: Outfit member Cap


Originally Posted by SKYeXile View Post
Hey im all for the zerfits, if it weren't for them welcoming new players to PS, teaching them the basics, then FC would have no developing and/or good players to poach
Don't you mean plenty of people that you can farm?
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Old 2012-04-03, 06:16 PM   [Ignore Me] #45
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Re: Outfit member Cap


Azure Twilght sends 20 MAXS into a base all in a line. They group up around the generator door and the CC door. Not 1 non-MAX AT member brings in a rek. They all get murdered in under a minute. So funny.

Years ago when I played a little NC, I remember a new player asking me in sanc how to join an outfit. I looked at his name and he had 666th Devil dogs on his outfit tag. I asked him "Didn't you know you were already in one?" and he responded "I am???" lol. True story.

Funny.


Fact is, large member outfits are alot of fun to watch in Planetside. They are what makes Planetside, massive! I don't like playing in a zerg outfit but when my smaller outfit are about to get rushed by a ton of enemies, I sure am glad when a friendly zerg-fit comes to our aid with 3 Gal drops!

Last edited by LONGFELLA KOJ; 2012-04-03 at 06:19 PM.
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