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Old 2012-06-30, 06:04 PM   [Ignore Me] #106
therandomone
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by n2q0_matrix View Post
That is a cop-out position. Justify why someone can force me to pay taxes. What is the morality of that? Where does this authority come from? How did any individual come to fall under it? How is this "freedom"?

There should be no consequences for not allowing someone to take what is yours, especially at the threat of violence, or death.

It is absurd if you actually question these things IF you actually support the concept of Liberty. Problem is, most don't or can't get pass the "it has always been this way" mental roadblock. Cognitive Dissonance at it's best.

Ya know people back in the day thought that as well so they created the Articles of Confederation first....theres many a reason we dont have that system, taxes were a part of that. Look it up.
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Old 2012-06-30, 06:42 PM   [Ignore Me] #107
n2q0_matrix
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by Warborn View Post
You pay taxes because you take advantage of services that could only exist through the collective effort of society. You have clean, running water, cheap electricity, relative safety due to law enforcement, and secure borders thanks to a national military and diplomatic service. All of these things are the direct result of people working together, either directly building and maintaining these services, or financing them through their taxes.

If you don't want to pay taxes, it's actually very easy. Just stop doing any business within society. Find some nice national park or some other vast area of wilderness and live off of the land. If you stop participating in society, and your obligation to society ends.
If anyone did any of the above, they would be thrown in a cage. There is no opt-out feature. And this is what makes it involuntary.

I never mentioned anything about not participating in society, voluntarily. I would rather a free market supply those things instead of a monolithic corrupt entity we are enslaved to. Just because there have been great advancements in this world before I was born, does not enslave me to them, or give me the Right to take them. Using the above logic you mentioned, it would. Everyone has the Right to exist, so what gives one the Right to take from another? This has yet to be rationalized.

All of these things you mention can and were done without coercion and the direct threat of violence. We have done well in spite of the government meddling, not because of it.

The idea that we "need" to pay taxes in order to freely associate and interact in a mutually beneficial way is unsupported. Lots of people claim this, yet it is simply not true and unfounded. We did it before the government got involved...or did your government forced education forget to teach you that?

One thing everyone must remember here is that any government is simply a group of people. Not some magical parental entity....just people. So government is simply a concept, an intangible, a structure of power. You take that away and all you have is a small group of people telling the others what they can and cannot do. Well, what gives that small group that authority in a "free" society?

At core of it, people just want what they want and don't care too much about how they get it. If we have to steal, or hurt, or whatever...it's justified and the way it should be if the end result is accomplished. Everyone wants to think and feel they are a good and just person...but are they, when you really start to scrutinize what we advocate, support, and/or implement?

It is time to move forward, to move on to the next iteration of societal interaction. One that is actually voluntary, free, and supports the concept of Individual Rights. Doing it the same way and expecting things to get better is insane.

Question everything. Challenge everything.

Guns should be used for protection, not control.

When the Constitution was written, talking about Freedom, Equality, etc...we still did not have Equal Rights for woman and we still had slavery. Cognitive Dissonance...Men should be FREE...unless you are a owned...wait what?

Now, there was a movement to end slavery at that time, and some slave owners did just that. Granted it was very premature as slavery would not come to an end in America for a long time. Why? Because the mass of the populace was unwilling to give up what they wanted even when it flew in the face of what they believed and wanted for themselves. They wanted free labor, but also wanted to be free from their tyrannical monarchy. Willing to look the other way, or worse justify, the fact that they were in fact tyrants to others. Directly or indirectly via support of the system. The elimination of slavery in America only came about once most of the people were willing to see the hypocrisy and supported ending it.

Anyone see a pattern yet? The ideas I am speaking about are very premature as the mass of the populace is not there yet. But it is inevitable. Humans want/need to be free. I just want to see it in my lifetime, although not likely. Not until more are willing to face the absurdity and contradictions of the current systems.
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Old 2012-06-30, 06:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #108
Vecha
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by Warborn View Post
You pay taxes because you take advantage of services that could only exist through the collective effort of society. You have clean, running water, cheap electricity, relative safety due to law enforcement, and secure borders thanks to a national military and diplomatic service. All of these things are the direct result of people working together, either directly building and maintaining these services, or financing them through their taxes.

If you don't want to pay taxes, it's actually very easy. Just stop doing any business within society. Find some nice national park or some other vast area of wilderness and live off of the land. If you stop participating in society, and your obligation to society ends.
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Old 2012-06-30, 06:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #109
n2q0_matrix
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by therandomone View Post
Ya know people back in the day thought that as well so they created the Articles of Confederation first....theres many a reason we dont have that system, taxes were a part of that. Look it up.
Yes. I am familiar with both systems from the founding. More of us are starting to move beyond them. We are seeing the errors and immoral concepts. I hope one day more people see theft and initiation of force as immoral.
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Old 2012-06-30, 06:49 PM   [Ignore Me] #110
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by n2q0_matrix View Post
Everyone has the Right to exist, so what gives one the Right to take from another? This has yet to be rationalized.
I'd like to know how you "do not take from anyone"

Are you self-sustained?

Did you not go to a public school?(quite possible).

What food did/do you eat?(A majority is subsidized to make it cheaper).

Do you drive a car?(Those roads you drive on are maintained by local governments).


What do you want? Do you want to go back to a time when there was no government? When we were cut off into small communities?

The world is a big place...we depend on international/national trade.
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Old 2012-06-30, 06:58 PM   [Ignore Me] #111
n2q0_matrix
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by Vecha View Post
QFT


"Taxes, are the dues that we pay for the privileges of membership in an organized society."
FDR
Nice sound byte. Feels good doesn't it? I use to think so at one time. Almost seems rational, until you ask....

Where did I sign on?
I have Natural Rights, where do these "privileges" come from?
Who determines these "privileges"?
Who determines who gets to be a member and who does not?
How come "organized society" cannot exist without this construct of government?
What happens if I don't want to be apart of this "organized society" but would rather make a different organized society?

This is just a sound byte to make people feel good about having their time(life) taken from them in the form of taxes. A brilliant form of emotion policing that squashes questioning the system.

But no matter how you word it...it always comes down to theft. One taking from another at the threat of violence or death.
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Old 2012-06-30, 07:07 PM   [Ignore Me] #112
Vecha
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by n2q0_matrix View Post
Nice sound byte. Feels good doesn't it? I use to think so at one time. Almost seems rational, until you ask....

Where did I sign on?
I have Natural Rights, where do these "privileges" come from?
Who determines these "privileges"?
Who determines who gets to be a member and who does not?
How come "organized society" cannot exist without this construct of government?
What happens if I don't want to be apart of this "organized society" but would rather make a different organized society?

This is just a sound byte to make people feel good about having their time(life) taken from them in the form of taxes. A brilliant form of emotion policing that squashes questioning the system.

But no matter how you word it...it always comes down to theft. One taking from another at the threat of violence or death.
It is not theft. Its a give and take. I guarantee the taxes that are "taken" from you benefit you. Whether it is fixing your roads or educating future children.

With that said. We can argue about "how" these taxes are put to place in order to benefit us.

But it is not 'theft'

I work. I use the roads to my job. I eat food that is subsidized I use schools that are paid with by my taxes, etc etc.

If you don't want to pay taxes(waste your time). Then don't get a modern job. (though I supposed property tax will getcha).

We as a species require organization. We have for hundreds, thousands of years. We have always had a system in place. We all had roles.

It has evolved from that.


You still have not answered my question about what kind of society you think we will evolve into. I'm really interested how you think we will go beyond governments/organized society.
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Old 2012-06-30, 07:21 PM   [Ignore Me] #113
n2q0_matrix
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by Vecha View Post
I'd like to know how you "do not take from anyone"

Are you self-sustained?

Did you not go to a public school?(quite possible).

What food did/do you eat?(A majority is subsidized to make it cheaper).

Do you drive a car?(Those roads you drive on are maintained by local governments).


What do you want? Do you want to go back to a time when there was no government? When we were cut off into small communities?

The world is a big place...we depend on international/national trade.
By do not take, I mean do not steal.

I like interacting with others and I like specialization, so I have no desire to be "self sustained". I like the idea of trade with others...just minus the government. They aren't necessary or desired in these types of interactions.

I did go to public school, as my parents did not wish to be arrested for me not going. However, since the start of the Department of Education our education system has produced poorer results while the costs have gone up. I would rather the private sector handle schooling. Right now you can get everything, and more, than what our government offers...for free. By entities that are private, not the government. The market has pulled this off in spite of the government.

Yes I eat food. Subsidized food...wow. So the government takes money from us, to give to people who grow only certain foods, which drives down the cost, which we then buy (unless we don't because it is something we don't want) then we pay more taxes so they can subsidize again, wait...what exactly did the government do that is beneficial?? The bad things they do are artificially inflate supply which artificially effects demand, which messes with market forces on commodities that they don't subsidize, which puts some businesses out of business that supply things people do want. Subsidies have been proven over and over to be bad for the free market and costs overall. PLUS, we then have to pay for the bureaucracy on top of it. Yes the people pay...for everything. It is a great form of control though, and surplus of certain things, to be used as leverage, I mean foreign aid.

I do drive a car. The roads don't need to be maintained by the government, we can do it without them. Like we did before. It is possible, if people would realize that it is possible and stop thinking it can only be done by the government...err people. Wait, aren't we people?


I do not want to go back in time nor do I think communities should be cut off. All of it is possible without a government. I am all for trade. Global Free Market.
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Last edited by n2q0_matrix; 2012-06-30 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 2012-06-30, 07:35 PM   [Ignore Me] #114
cBselfmonkey
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by elfailo View Post
Maybe if people stopped electing unenlightened halfwits and megalomaniacs, they would finally be able to trust ze guvment.
Noone else actually wants to bother with running a country. You either have to be stupid enough to think you can fix the problems of your country in a term or crazy enough to think you can fix the problems of your country in a term.
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Old 2012-06-30, 08:08 PM   [Ignore Me] #115
ChargerCarl
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by n2q0_matrix View Post
That is a cop-out position. Justify why someone can force me to pay taxes. What is the morality of that? Where does this authority come from? How did any individual come to fall under it? How is this "freedom"?

There should be no consequences for not allowing someone to take what is yours, especially at the threat of violence, or death.

It is absurd if you actually question these things IF you actually support the concept of Liberty. Problem is, most don't or can't get pass the "it has always been this way" mental roadblock. Cognitive Dissonance at it's best.
Really, its yours? what about all the infrastructure (not just physical) laid down by other men, past and present, which enabled you to amass your wealth? wheres the morality in you not paying the share society deems fair?

Honestly, do you libertarian types actually think you'd rise to the top in the type of society you advocate?

Originally Posted by n2q0_matrix View Post
There is no opt-out feature.
umm you know you can leave right?

Last edited by ChargerCarl; 2012-06-30 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 2012-06-30, 08:54 PM   [Ignore Me] #116
n2q0_matrix
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by ChargerCarl View Post
Really, its yours? what about all the infrastructure (not just physical) laid down by other men, past and present, which enabled you to amass your wealth? wheres the morality in you not paying the share society deems fair?

Honestly, do you libertarian types actually think you'd rise to the top in the type of society you advocate?



umm you know you can leave right?

First, I shouldn't have to leave anywhere in order to be free, I was not born a slave to anyone or group. Either you support Individual Rights, or you don't.

Society is nothing more than a collection of individuals. The whole does not get to dictate to the individual....IF..you support Individual Rights.

Also, it isn't about this notion of "your fair share". I am not asking for everything to be provided to me that is non voluntary. And again, just because it was there before I was born does not mean I must pay for it. Furthermore, who is this "society" that does the deeming?

As for rising to the top, that is subjective. Any intelligent sociopath can rise to the top of the government. Can you do it and still embody morals? Smaller group when you look at it that way. Financial success, yes many of us are libertarian minded. Many don't speak out because they feel it is futile to debate with those that cannot understand. But for me, it isn't about being at the top or better than others, it is about living my life as I see fit....because I own me...it is my life. The best life I can live is the one I create for myself.

I know what it is to be poor. I know what it is to be well off. I have lived in both worlds.
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Old 2012-06-30, 11:34 PM   [Ignore Me] #117
CutterJohn
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by n2q0_matrix View Post
First, I shouldn't have to leave anywhere in order to be free, I was not born a slave to anyone or group. Either you support Individual Rights, or you don't.
Or, you know, have a nuanced middle ground position where you recognize that there are positions between anarchy and slavery, and some limitations and controls on society benefit all.

Society is nothing more than a collection of individuals. The whole does not get to dictate to the individual....IF..you support Individual Rights.
So you think murderers should not be put in prison, because you think there should be no prisons. Gotcha.

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Old 2012-06-30, 11:43 PM   [Ignore Me] #118
ChargerCarl
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by n2q0_matrix View Post
First, I shouldn't have to leave anywhere in order to be free, I was not born a slave to anyone or group. Either you support Individual Rights, or you don't.

Society is nothing more than a collection of individuals. The whole does not get to dictate to the individual....IF..you support Individual Rights.
oh I see, by "Individual Rights" you actually mean "The right to freeload".
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Old 2012-06-30, 11:55 PM   [Ignore Me] #119
cBselfmonkey
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by DjEclipse View Post
Sounds about right brother.

Why does every good idea need an industry to choke it? Why does every good idea need a government to smother it? It is what it is, but it is getting old.

People need to smarten the fuck up.
Because control is power. If you can own it, or legislate it, you have power over it. And people like their power.
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Old 2012-07-01, 12:03 AM   [Ignore Me] #120
Vecha
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Re: What a travisty


Originally Posted by n2q0_matrix View Post

I did go to public school, as my parents did not wish to be arrested for me not going. However, since the start of the Department of Education our education system has produced poorer results while the costs have gone up. I would rather the private sector handle schooling.
Show me some credible sources that says private education is outperforming public schools. And I don't mean by just 1 or 2% points...I mean enough to get us out of 27th(or whatever it is) in math.
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