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View Poll Results: How powerful should the Sniper Rifle be?
It shouldn't exist. 2 2.38%
No one-hit kills. 10 11.90%
One-hits to head on lighter armours. 56 66.67%
One-hits anywhere on lighter armours. 13 15.48%
One-hits on MAXes. 3 3.57%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2002-12-28, 03:22 PM   [Ignore Me] #46
Coliostro
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Originally posted by Dio

I wasn't talking about you, more like 2 other people before you, i make it a point to not try and have a serious debate with people who result to "sit down and shut up".
Yeah, i have a tendency to ignore those folks as well. My mommy always told me, "If you don't have anything intelligent to say, don't say it at all." hmm...Or was that "nice" Well, either way i didn't talk much as a kid
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Old 2002-12-28, 05:40 PM   [Ignore Me] #47
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Originally posted by Coliostro
Yeah, i have a tendency to ignore those folks as well. My mommy always told me, "If you don't have anything intelligent to say, don't say it at all." hmm...Or was that "nice" Well, either way i didn't talk much as a kid
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Old 2002-12-28, 07:50 PM   [Ignore Me] #48
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Old 2002-12-28, 07:58 PM   [Ignore Me] #49
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Oh, the irony of the last several posts...

Anyways, look, I'm sorry I'm one of "those people" -- if you have an argument to present, go ahead, Dio, but I seriously doubt it'll boil down to anything other than the typical argument snipers give about how they should be more powerful than everyone else.

Honestly, I'm not an anti-sniper... I LOVE sniping. I HATE snipers who feel it's their right to be a man-portable apacolypse. And while, yes, snipers are extremely effective in real life, in the interest of game design, balance should supercede realism.

So, since you're so hung up on the wording of my previous post, let me reword it:

"Yay, PlanetSide isn't catering to snipers like so many games do."

That better?
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Old 2002-12-28, 08:19 PM   [Ignore Me] #50
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Here's a stupid little fact. I remember reading that deployed snipers in the military get under 8 confirmed kills a war. I don't think that will aid this debate at all, so I'll make an exit now.....
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Old 2002-12-28, 08:32 PM   [Ignore Me] #51
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Yeah but your wording is still wrong Dragoon. You say "balance should supercede realism." when in reality what you wanted to say is "my thoughts should supercede yours.".

I can't see any other way to explain how you think "balance should supercede realism" yet demand that the snipers role in-game be realistic.

As i said previously in this thread
i would hope for sway in the first seconds of aiming. This means you can't run, shoot, run, shoot, you have to stop, kneel (less sway if crouched) aim, wait a bit then fire, then either you get up and run or you stay crouched, aim again and fire. Between shots it should take a good 3-5secs before sway goes down enough to aim good.
This would mean the role and actions real. In real life you can't shoot bullets every few seconds and hope to kill your target, the point of sniping is take down your target in 1 shot or you're out. Make sniping a question of aiming and skill like it should be.

Anyhooo i'm gonna try and get out of this thread by saying this.

I do NOT want the sniper to be a 1 man army, i just think the Anti-sniper people should quit focusing on the damage per shot and instead focus on the difficulty of said shot. You want a game where not every "n00b" is a sniper then quit demanding less damage and instead make it impossible to get a headshot unless you spend 10hours a week for 8 months on praticing your sniper skillz.
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Old 2002-12-28, 09:08 PM   [Ignore Me] #52
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Old 2002-12-28, 09:19 PM   [Ignore Me] #53
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Originally posted by Hamma
Now i know how you got your l33t whorex2 status Hamma.
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Old 2002-12-28, 09:25 PM   [Ignore Me] #54
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Maybe it should be like a 56ker snipes in Tribes and Tribes 2, they can't hit a damn thing because they don't see in real time.
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Old 2002-12-28, 09:54 PM   [Ignore Me] #55
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Navaron -

Look back a long ways; snipers now-a-days get few average recorded kills as they're virtually never deployed. Why risk sending in snipers to take out a bunch of 3rd-world thugs when you can send in aircraft that will pulverize every single inch of the ground with laser-guided bombs? Another other reason that snipers aren't a major factor in modern wars is that they're still viewed with a stigma; they're essentially assassins, which makes for less-than-honorable warfare. And snipers are the guys you rarely hear about, because they're with the SEALS or Marine Force Recon or the Rangers - not exactly organizations that make a whole lot of data publicly available. You won't turn on CNN and hear that the US deployed a USMC Force Recon Sniper to Afghanistan who has 14 confirmed kills, 2 of which are enemy leaders. Another issue is that many snipers operate individually and they have a very high fatality rate. If so-and-so the sniper racks up 40 confirmed kills and is never heard from again, that's 40 confirmed kills that don't go on the record books.

Dio,

No, I'm not saying my thoughts should supercede yours, I'm saying that realism should be sacrificed for the benefit of gameplay. The one thing marksmanship has in common with gaming is that an extraordinary amount of dexterity is required in order to truly excel. Cones of fire, sway, etc. are all nice ideas, but what seperates a full-blown sniper from any other marksman (accuracy-wise) is an almost superhuman feel for the weapon; something that's not replicable in a gaming environment right now because the systems currently implemented are lacking any sort of intricacy or complexity. There's too much randomness involved in current systems for someone to really develop a "feel" for the weapon, and that's to say nothing of the technical limitations that go along with sniping in a game - you can't even go prone, you can't control your body or your breathing, you can't climb trees or dive for cover - your ideas are very good, but we just aren't there yet, in terms of the technology that'd be required to make them effective. But, believe me - if there was a system in place that was even close to replicating the sort of intricacy of actual sniping, meaning that players who wanted to be snipers would actually have to demonstrate a phenomenal amount of skill, I'd be all for it. But it's not happening - games aren't even approaching that level of sophistication right now.

The other point, as I mentioned earlier, is that snipers tend to be a little... nuts. They're going deep into hostile territory, alone, often to take out a very high-priority target. They have no backup, no safety, and their job is incredibly infuriating to an enemy force. In short, they tend to not live a long time. And, obviously, in real life, you don't just respawn and run back. Snipers are a special breed of headcase (and for the record, I speak from experience - my family has a very strong military background).

So if all that's required is dexterity, what's keeping the population of snipers in check? Very little... most people are dexterous enough to pose a significant risk if you're on the business end of their sniper rifle. However, snipers are, in many FPS games (namely tactical shooters) capable of dealing out death just as (if not more) effectively than their real-life counterparts, yet there's virtually no assumed risk.

<B>Real life:</B> Sniping is very high-risk, but has the potential for huge payoff. Snipers are few in numbers, so they're utilized on very high-priority missions, such as routing/demoralizing (NOT destroying) enemy troops or assassination.

High risk, high gain, immense skill required.

<B>Typical Video Game Model</B>: Snipers can one-shot almost anything, sometimes they need a second shot. They can single-handedly wipe out entire squads of enemy soldiers who are actively looking for them. And if they get caught? So what, they respawn. So they tend to be much more forward and "brave" than an actual sniper would be.

Very low risk, high gain, little skill required.

Something not seem to match up right? It's risk vs. reward - a concept any game designer should be able to expound upon for hours. In short, the two need to be kept in line, relative to eachother. If one facet of the game offers significant risk with little gain, and another offers low risk with high gain, players will gravitate towards the low-risk, high-gain profession and ignore the other, thus affecting the overall balance of the game. Hell, it even changes the very fundamentals of combat. This is a patently bad thing for reasons that are very obvious.

So all I propose is this: since the technology isn't sophisticated enough to impliment a more realistic system of sniping and sniper control, we should asjust the risk/reward ratio to make sniping fall in line with other professions. No more low-risk, high-gain sniping. Since PS' design necessitates low-risk, it needs to be low-risk, low-gain.
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Old 2002-12-28, 10:02 PM   [Ignore Me] #56
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You must have a lot of free time. That was one big damn post.
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Old 2002-12-28, 10:35 PM   [Ignore Me] #57
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That was so long winded i didn't read it. It wasn't addressed to me anyways though. It's a federal offense to open other peoples mail ya know.
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Old 2002-12-28, 11:46 PM   [Ignore Me] #58
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Wow that was indeed long but the most surprising thing was it was actually well thought out. Kudos

I agree with the whole, i (as i said many times before) don't want the sniper in PS to be a 1 man army, nobody should not a MAX, not a tank,nothing.

However if the sniper would need 2-3 headshots for a kill on any armor than it would become useless or rather nearly useless. The only thing you could do as a sniper would be shoot the guy once and either try to get him again and pray your lucky and/or he is dumb or run away.

I think (as stated before) the empashis should be on making headshots lethal on anything except med and MAX armors but make said headshots very hard to do on a moving target and make reload time long enough to make the 1st shot important and not just shoot as many times as you want in 5 secs.

And heck if you guys are really that worried about every "n00b" becoming a sniper then demand that they include a sniper cert that would cost a lot of cert points so that only those who want to snipe and only snipe become snipers. Or if you grab a bolt driver you can only carry that and a pistol. Something along those lines so that the sniper is still able to do his job and kill from a distance but is screwed if he doesn't have the smarts and the skillz to pull it off.

You know now that i think of it i really really hope the sniper can't carry anything except a pistol and maybe a few nades. It would make the sniper a lot more real and fun.

Again Kudos Dragoon on a well thought out and respectful post.
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Old 2002-12-28, 11:57 PM   [Ignore Me] #59
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Old 2002-12-28, 11:59 PM   [Ignore Me] #60
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Originally posted by Hamma
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