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Old 2003-11-21, 03:36 PM   [Ignore Me] #16
Madcow
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cHaM is a good guy, first of all. I've played with him before. Secondly, he was pretty thorough about the ways he had tried to report things to SOE through the channels that are provided to us. He did the things you're saying you wish he'd done. He didn't post first and asked questions later, he /bugged and talked to QA folk and did what we're all told to do. Apparently he did that pretty much since release, and nothing was done. Finally he decided enough was enough and tried a different tactic. Sony got embarrassed and had to shove some fixes through (just like when they were able to band-aid fix the speedhacks when that became too public). Were they planning on fixing bugs? Most likely. Would so many of cHaM's issues have gotten resolved in a single patch if he hadn't gone public? Nope. It's called damage control.

There's no reason to be blanket Sony apologists. They have PR people who get paid quite handsomely to fill that role.
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Old 2003-11-21, 03:42 PM   [Ignore Me] #17
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Originally Posted by Madcow
Sony got embarrassed and had to shove some fixes through. Would so many of cHaM's issues have gotten resolved in a single patch if he hadn't gone public? Nope
All in your opinion, none is fact.

Originally Posted by Madcow
There's no reason to be blanket Sony apologists.
I am not defending Sony at all, I am defending my playability of the game. He could care less if he ruined the game for everyone else, it wasn't going to affect him since he was leaving. But publicly doing as he did ruins the game for those who could care less by driving away current and future competition and bringing more exploiters.
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Old 2003-11-21, 04:29 PM   [Ignore Me] #18
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Madcow - I'm sure cHaM is a good guy and fun to play with, and all of that, but what he did was the wrong way to handle it, and cheapened the game by doing so. And unless you're a software developer, and understand the life cycle of a product, your opinion how SOE's internal procedures may or may not work is pretty invalid. Bugs are prioritized, and usually scheduled in depending on work on new development. It's a very tough thing to balance, and they've done an ok job. Not great, but not as horrible as everyone makes it out to be. I assure you these "exploits" were on the schedule. And I hardly think that cHaM's crusade had much of anything to do with a couple of them being fixed in today's patch. Don't you think they would have all been addressed suddenly if they were in "damage control"? Give me a break, and SOE too. As long as they are regularly releasing bugfixes you really have nothing to complain about. If the schedule isn't fast enough for you, maybe you should take a break and come back in a few months.
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Old 2003-11-21, 04:32 PM   [Ignore Me] #19
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Originally Posted by Gryphon
All in your opinion, none is fact.



I am not defending Sony at all, I am defending my playability of the game. He could care less if he ruined the game for everyone else, it wasn't going to affect him since he was leaving. But publicly doing as he did ruins the game for those who could care less by driving away current and future competition and bringing more exploiters.
Are you honestly telling me that what I'm saying is nothing but opinion but that cHaM "driving away current and future competition" is somehow fact? I can tell you that personally, I'm happier to play the game than I was before knowing that some of these exploits are finally getting addressed. I'm not sure how it's defending your playability of the game to know that exploits were in the game that weren't being addressed. You could make the argument that cHaM may have shown ignorant people what the exploits were and that they might start using them, but again you're dabbling in opinion again. In the meantime, a week and a half after he went post crazy we have fixes to these problems that might adversely effect the playability of your game. That is one wacky coincidence, and makes me wonder why Spork or somebody else at Sony didn't just let cHaM know that the upcoming patch was addressing his fears before it got out of control? Odd that...
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Old 2003-11-21, 04:36 PM   [Ignore Me] #20
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Originally Posted by Madcow
That is one wacky coincidence, and makes me wonder why Spork or somebody else at Sony didn't just let cHaM know that the upcoming patch was addressing his fears before it got out of control? Odd that...
Contrary to what most people think, it's not their job to tell us everything on their schedule. Besides, just because a bug is on the schedule to be fixed, it doesn't mean the date of that fix is set in stone. You usually say have a week to fix bugs, and get as many done as you can, for example. I think not only would it take to much time to keep us up to date with every detail of their development interworkings, but it wouldn't always be accurate, which in turn would frustrate the players even more. It's just not worth it.
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Old 2003-11-21, 04:38 PM   [Ignore Me] #21
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Originally Posted by infinite loop
Madcow - I'm sure cHaM is a good guy and fun to play with, and all of that, but what he did was the wrong way to handle it, and cheapened the game by doing so.
Your opinion, and I tend to disagree. It would have been the wrong way to go about it if he'd started with the posting. He did the routine, it wasn't working.

Originally Posted by infinite loop
And unless you're a software developer, and understand the life cycle of a product, your opinion how SOE's internal procedures may or may not work is pretty invalid.
That's pretty condescending. When is your game coming out? You know, since your opinion of SOE's internal procedures is more valid than other people's?

Originally Posted by infinite loop
Bugs are prioritized, and usually scheduled in depending on work on new development. It's a very tough thing to balance, and they've done an ok job. Not great, but not as horrible as everyone makes it out to be. I assure you these "exploits" were on the schedule.
I've never said the bug squashing was horrible. They are normally pretty quick about fixing game breakers, although they seem pretty happy to let 'lesser' bugs which might diminish enjoyment in the game stick around for an abnormally long time.

Originally Posted by infinite loop
And I hardly think that cHaM's crusade had much of anything to do with a couple of them being fixed in today's patch. Don't you think they would have all been addressed suddenly if they were in "damage control"? Give me a break, and SOE too. As long as they are regularly releasing bugfixes you really have nothing to complain about. If the schedule isn't fast enough for you, maybe you should take a break and come back in a few months.
All right, I get the condescending routine. No reason to hammer it home. You're right, it was all a massive coincidence. I see that now.
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Old 2003-11-21, 04:42 PM   [Ignore Me] #22
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Originally Posted by infinite loop
Contrary to what most people think, it's not their job to tell us everything on their schedule. Besides, just because a bug is on the schedule to be fixed, it doesn't mean the date of that fix is set in stone. You usually say have a week to fix bugs, and get as many done as you can, for example. I think not only would it take to much time to keep us up to date with every detail of their development interworkings, but it wouldn't always be accurate, which in turn would frustrate the players even more. It's just not worth it.
But if somebody is publically announcing that they're posting these exploits everywhere possible, it's pretty feasible to think they might get a message from somebody just quietly letting them know it's already being worked on and they'll see results soon.

And the QA guys just weren't doing their jobs at all in the playtests obviously.
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Old 2003-11-21, 04:44 PM   [Ignore Me] #23
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I apologize if my post was condescending, that was not my intention. I am partially still venting my frustration at the entire ordeal that cHaM started, it's nothing personal. I guess my point is, this game's development procedures are much more under the microscope than most games, and it gets criticized more than it is fair to. People want to assume or suggest that a certain schedule should have been followed, when they really have no idea what SOE's procedures are. I have no idea either, and so honestly my opinion is not valid. But I am a developer, so I understand a little bit what it is like. I think that SOE would be served better to acknowledge issues more publicly, so at least it would get people off their back. That's all I'm saying.
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Old 2003-11-21, 04:48 PM   [Ignore Me] #24
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Originally Posted by Madcow
But if somebody is publically announcing that they're posting these exploits everywhere possible, it's pretty feasible to think they might get a message from somebody just quietly letting them know it's already being worked on and they'll see results soon.

And the QA guys just weren't doing their jobs at all in the playtests obviously.
From what I read and saw of cHaM's posts, he didn't really give them a chance to stop him. I mean he just started posting the exploits everywhere pretty much unannounced. Even if he had emailed or contacted SOE threatening to do this, I wouldn't expect them to necessarily take that in a positive fashion, or want to even respond. I'm sure they get plenty of negative emails, and don't reply to most. But I do agree a bit more acknowledgement from SOE would be more helpful.
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Old 2003-11-21, 05:04 PM   [Ignore Me] #25
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Why should he have to threaten them? They never let him know the issues he kept bringing up time and again were being worked on, so why should he let them know what he planned to do about it? If you are naive enough to think it's a coincidence that they are patching the bugs he was crusading for just a couple weeks later, then bravo you have reached an all new level of blind fanboyhood.

Nobody is saying that they have to post all of their own internal deadlines, but for massive issues like this that are being ignored and marginalized how the hell can you possibly blame the messenger? Seriously, it's positively absurd to act like the bugs are cHaM's fault! If anything, he allowed a few newbs to use them out on the battlefield, and they may have caused you to die a couple extra times. The bugs were created and maintained by SOE. Care to buy a clue?
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Old 2003-11-21, 05:18 PM   [Ignore Me] #26
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CHaM isnt a hero, and he didnt solve these issues - he is part of the problem. Sorry to say it, but its true.

Just because you dont get a response from /bug or emails doesent mean its not being looked at, do you have any idea how many reports they probably get everyday
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Old 2003-11-21, 05:20 PM   [Ignore Me] #27
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I guess you don't believe that the end justifies the means, so I'm sure we'll never see eye-to-eye on this one Hamma.
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Old 2003-11-21, 06:24 PM   [Ignore Me] #28
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w00t! FPS improvements
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Old 2003-11-21, 06:43 PM   [Ignore Me] #29
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I have to agree with Hamma. The damage cHaM may or may not have done is exponentially worse than any help he could have contributed.

Sure, its sounds ok to lay it all on the table, and say, "Ok devs, here's all the exploits and how to use them. You better fix it or all your valued customers will leave!"

Some things can't be changed that easily. For all we know, cHaM is the reason the spitfire turrets don't shoot straight, and the FPS performance has dropped. Maybe the devs had those figured out, then cHaM goes crazy and spams, and the devs go, "Well shit, now we don't have any choice but to fix these exploits. Now that spitfire fix we've been working on for a month has to go back to the drawing board because the rudimentary code the turrets work on is based off the code we now have to change to stop these little-known exploits."

I played everquest for 4 years. Anyone who has played that for a while knew that you couldn't have an item with a stat over +127, or a monster with over 32,000 hit points for 3 freaking years. It was hardcoded. It couldn't be changed with the flick of a switch. It took them their 2nd expansion to give monsters with more hitpoints, and their 4th expansion to modify the code to give items with over +127 on them.

But let's not stay off topic here. There are more important things to discuss!

w00t! FPS improvements
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Old 2003-11-21, 06:50 PM   [Ignore Me] #30
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I do find this whole ordeal over cHaM's "public announcement" quite amusing. No one's going to see eye-to-eye about this (unless you agree with what he did).

Frankly, I totally agree with what cHaM did *if* he tried the appropriate channels first. I agree with him and I *AM* a software developer. I understand the "software design cycle" and I know how slow it can be. However, a company *cannot* allow a bug to fester for months on end. I don't care if they're working on an expansion, maintainance of a released software product takes priority. When I worked for HP, we had whole teams of developers dedicated to bugs, and only bugs. Did we fix them all? Of course not, you never can, but we fixed those bugs in *parallel* to any new software.

If cHaM had not posted publicly, those bugs may have been fixed.. when SOE had nothing else to do. Sometimes, bugs just need to be shown to the public for them to get fixed - that is how a lot of corporations work.

I totally support full disclosure and no one better say anything about me "not understanding how developers work" because I do... and I also know that bugs do not get the work they need and will not get fixed unless the cost of those bugs being present becomes more than the cost to fix those bugs.

cHaM.. if you want to post exploits you find that's fine with me.. just follow proper channels first (admins be damned).

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