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Old 2013-07-02, 10:17 AM   [Ignore Me] #31
NewSith
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


I dislike. I predict the AA vs Air debate will again turn completely into Flak vs Air debate.

I just fail to see why people think fire and forget missiles are OP, considering 10000000 missiles can be distracted by just one set of flares. If anything flares are UP, rather than lock-ons are OP.
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Old 2013-07-02, 10:18 AM   [Ignore Me] #32
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


Originally Posted by Valkar View Post
Well I did think that initially but if you read the title above it says

New ESF Weapons

Reminder, all the below weapons are works in progress and subject to change.
The weapons below are designed to be air combat options for the secondary (wing mounted) slots. They are intended to supplement the nose cannons.

So from new ESF (empire specific) and there being 3 I assume its one each
Could be, but I think it's a bit unclear TBH. The weapons seem to fill quite different roles, which might be interesting for faction variety, but seems like it could be tough to balance well. I guess we'll see.

Also, in terms of ES characteristics - both the Locust and the Coyote seem to be TR-style weapons - the Locust being a spin-up weapon with a high RoF like the MCG and the Coyote being a lock-on swarm-missile much like the Striker.

I'd expect there to be some kind of annoying-to-use charge-up weapon for the VS
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Old 2013-07-02, 10:23 AM   [Ignore Me] #33
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


Originally Posted by NewSith View Post
I just fail to see why people think fire and forget missiles are OP, considering 10000000 missiles can be distracted by just one set of flares. If anything flares are UP, rather than lock-ons are OP.
Especially considering with this change you will see the lock-ons on your mini map before they get to you. So you can judge for yourself if the flare is worth using to drop the lock-ons or if you should just try to out manuever the lock-on.

Overall I am glad that ESFs will be getting some work done. I haven't flown my scythe in a long time because lock-ons are kinda broken at the moment.. the Striker in particular. I will have to brush up on my weak flying skills and try to get up to par.
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Old 2013-07-02, 10:50 AM   [Ignore Me] #34
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


I hope for a larger proportion of empire-specific guns. Especially when you're homogenizing the current ESF weapons to an even greater degree.

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper View Post
I'd expect there to be some kind of annoying-to-use charge-up weapon for the VS
Sure, plop a couple powered up lancers on the wings....without the huge damage reduction the ground based gun has against aircraft.

I'd like a new-Sauron-esque burst fire sort of gun. Maybe that can be the new A2G weapon. I'd really like a pure anti-armor cannon or wing-weapon. Easier to balance than anti-everything pods.
I hope there are new A2G weapons. Something people seem to not want to recognize: There's no point to A2A planes if there aren't any A2G planes to shoot down.

Though I really like the sound of that mass driver.
Nice big "fuck you" to all the belly-up dalton libs that have more maneuverability than a scythe.
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Old 2013-07-02, 11:07 AM   [Ignore Me] #35
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


Originally Posted by Rbstr View Post
I hope for a larger proportion of empire-specific guns. Especially when you're homogenizing the current ESF weapons to an even greater degree.



Sure, plop a couple powered up lancers on the wings....without the huge damage reduction the ground based gun has against aircraft.

I'd like a new-Sauron-esque burst fire sort of gun. Maybe that can be the new A2G weapon. I'd really like a pure anti-armor cannon or wing-weapon. Easier to balance than anti-everything pods.
I hope there are new A2G weapons. Something people seem to not want to recognize: There's no point to A2A planes if there aren't any A2G planes to shoot down.

Though I really like the sound of that mass driver.
Nice big "fuck you" to all the belly-up dalton libs that have more maneuverability than a scythe.
I also would have liked a bit more variety and as my fellow Vanu stated the Coyote and Locust sound like TR weapons to me. Give the VS a nice dual lancer wing gun or even better pulse cannons similar to star trek disruptors. Think Independence Day(you did not fire that green s**t at me)!

I really wish they had made the A2G fighters the only ones able to hover but about 25% slower in flighter without AB pods. The make the A2A ones fast but unable to hover to avoid the hover reverse power thrust dog fighter we get now.

I do like that the new lock on mechanic means you can avoid lock ons entirely if you fly low but then bursters and SGswill rip you. So if you fly high Flak cant get you but lock ons can keep a LOS for the lock much easier and for longer. Sounds like balance to me
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Old 2013-07-02, 11:07 AM   [Ignore Me] #36
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


How about we have fighters that handle like fighters.

If you have a flying system that requires you to look at peoples glitchy tutorials on youtube just to compete, by binding a bunch of keys that arnt there as a preset, you have a silly system.

Added to that the fact that dogfights are won the fastest person to slam on their breaks and turn around. Did anyone expect them to work like this?

I mean we have flying turrets, theyre called liberators. A jet should stall if it slows beyond a certain speed, to encourage fast paced chases and high g maneuvers. And hit and run tactics on the battlefield. Not swiveling stationary targets.
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Old 2013-07-02, 11:39 AM   [Ignore Me] #37
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


Originally Posted by Cosmical View Post
How about we have fighters that handle like fighters.

If you have a flying system that requires you to look at peoples glitchy tutorials on youtube just to compete, by binding a bunch of keys that arnt there as a preset, you have a silly system.

Added to that the fact that dogfights are won the fastest person to slam on their breaks and turn around. Did anyone expect them to work like this?

I mean we have flying turrets, theyre called liberators. A jet should stall if it slows beyond a certain speed, to encourage fast paced chases and high g maneuvers. And hit and run tactics on the battlefield. Not swiveling stationary targets.
They would have to actually make jets if you want jet combat. What they did was make all the ESFs VTOLs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTOL

If you had true jets you would need landing strips since you wouldn't be able to just fly to the ground and repair then immediately get back into the action.
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Old 2013-07-02, 11:49 AM   [Ignore Me] #38
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


Get rid of the after-burning and limit maneuverability while in hover mode.
Bam, no more hover-fest because it just won't work.
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Old 2013-07-02, 11:58 AM   [Ignore Me] #39
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


How I'm reading this.

Locust:

This is a ground attack alternative to rocketpods. The current rocket pods can be adjusted to be more like vehicle AP rounds. Meanwhile the Locust can take over the role of infantry mauler. It could be like having a pair of wing mounted banshees, though maybe not quite as potent against armor.

Coyote Missiles:

I'm not sure the current description is much to go off of. I assume these are more like striker rounds; they tickle you to death. I think these are meant to be the "low-skill" weapon against better pilots.

If this is true, then I think it's safe to say that this weapon will have the same kind of drawbacks/advantages as the shoulder mounted terror. Though obviously they only lock-on to air and have much shorter ranges/times.

Assuming my assumptions about the Coyote are correct, I'm already doing this:

Even with a handful of drawbacks this is a nasty weapon that is distinctly easier to use than a nose cannon. Just stick with the current A2A missiles with the new lock-on mechanic.

NS-50 Mass Driver:
We'll see how this plays out because again, the description is very vague.

Some of the more general changes seem fine. No more bailers

I'd really like to see more distinction between ground attack and air attack however. This hybrid stuff just seems unnecessarily hard to balance. I think it takes away from other air vehicles when the little solo vehicle can fight ground and air effectively at the same time.

My personal proposal would be change how the chassis work.

Default: Racer Chassis:
Available Upgrades:
Nose: Default gun
Secondary: afterburner tanks.
This ESF variant is basically like the stock ESF you get now except it defaults to having the racer chassis. (+Top Speed)

Certable: Dogfighting Chassis:
Available Upgrades:
Nose: Rotary
Secondary: afterburner tanks, A2A missiles, Mass Drivers.
This ESF variant is highly maneuverable and designed to dominate the skies. (+Pitch, roll, brakes) (-top speed, hover)

Certable: Stability Chassis:
Available Upgrades:
Nose: ES A2G
Secondary: Rocket Pods, Locust, afterburner tanks.
This ESF variant is designed specifically for ground attack. Primary and secondary weapons can be fired simultaneously. (+Yaw, ascend/descend speed, hover) (-top speed, roll, pitch)

This should give flying an ESF more flavor, though I'd imagine a lot of pilots wouldn't be happy about giving up their ground attack powers for air superiority.

I'm not sure they'd ever go for dividing up ground and air attack. It would make it harder for pilots to provide tangible support to ground offensives if they are stuck with just one attack mode.

My counter to that line of thinking is that a single lone wolf should not be an aerial jack of all trades unless they are willing to make extreme sacrifices; in this case they would have to use the racer chassis.

This should add a combined arms element to the air warfare. The superiority ESFs need to protect the ground pounders. Outfits shouldn't have a problem divvying up tasks and it should make things far more interesting.

As a part of this proposal, I think vehicle users REALLY REALLY SHOULD be able to go to a vehicle terminal and adjust their equipment. Obviously pulling a new vehicle should cost something but changing the loadout of your current vehicle should either be free or cost way less.
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Last edited by OctavianAXFive; 2013-07-02 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 2013-07-02, 12:05 PM   [Ignore Me] #40
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


Plus one vote for the loadout tab to open when you stop on a reload pad / ammo tower. I feel like that's been sorely missed this whole time.
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Old 2013-07-02, 12:10 PM   [Ignore Me] #41
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


Originally Posted by Dragonskin View Post
They would have to actually make jets if you want jet combat. What they did was make all the ESFs VTOLs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTOL

If you had true jets you would need landing strips since you wouldn't be able to just fly to the ground and repair then immediately get back into the action.
I understand what you're saying and I appreciate that this is the route the dev team took to basically give us helicopters and jets all rolled into one because making two aircraft just wasn't possible at the time. But i promise you there is not a single VTOL aircraft in the world capable of flying full speed then slowing to a hover mid flight in combat, turning around and shooting at another aircraft chasing.

I think the point of what many of us is saying is that its time dogfighting came down to skill in flying where right now it is about keybinding to pull off a quick brake, reverse thrust and then hovering in a single position as you unload a clip.

Whilst many pilots will say this is skillful and many who do it are certainly excellent pilots and I have a lot of respect for them, I can tell you now that if they removed this, you would see a lot more pilots winning fights and the top gun list would change over night.

Why add joystick support when you just need to press space bar, shift and S right?
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Old 2013-07-02, 12:25 PM   [Ignore Me] #42
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


I think it's pretty clear at this point that they either:
  1. have the ESF experience they wanted.
  2. are too entrenched to change it.
  3. are ignorant to how rockin' a good flight model can be.

I've been pushing for tiny, no-CPU things like slip since tech test. I don't think we're going to get there.

So, while I agree 100% with everything you've just said, I'm afraid we need to be enthusiastic for the things that actually can change. Namely - creation of new things that go into slots that accept SC, vs. ripping out core code on a polarizing issue. Cynical perhaps, but also realistic.
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Old 2013-07-02, 12:30 PM   [Ignore Me] #43
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


I will wager that the new 'wing' weapons will be a total fragfest against infantry...better than lolpods are now and the nose gun possibly.
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Old 2013-07-02, 12:40 PM   [Ignore Me] #44
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


Originally Posted by Valkar View Post
I understand what you're saying and I appreciate that this is the route the dev team took to basically give us helicopters and jets all rolled into one because making two aircraft just wasn't possible at the time. But i promise you there is not a single VTOL aircraft in the world capable of flying full speed then slowing to a hover mid flight in combat, turning around and shooting at another aircraft chasing.

I think the point of what many of us is saying is that its time dogfighting came down to skill in flying where right now it is about keybinding to pull off a quick brake, reverse thrust and then hovering in a single position as you unload a clip.

Whilst many pilots will say this is skillful and many who do it are certainly excellent pilots and I have a lot of respect for them, I can tell you now that if they removed this, you would see a lot more pilots winning fights and the top gun list would change over night.

Why add joystick support when you just need to press space bar, shift and S right?
Hmm.. the game isn't based on true to life realism. It's sci-fi after all. They just based the design on VTOLs. I don't see how they can reduce the hover dog fight game without reducing the skill cap for pilots. I'm not a huge pilot in this game, but it seems like the reverse maneuver is one of the things that helps separate the skillful from the less skilled.

As for the joystick. What do you plan to use your free hand for while you are using your joystick hand? It's been years since I have used a joystick.. since Battlefield 2 days... but I remember using the joystick in my mouse hand and using my left hand to press keys if needed like normal. You would still get the higher precision of the joystick AND be able to use your free hand to press keys. I guess I don't get your question.
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Old 2013-07-02, 01:21 PM   [Ignore Me] #45
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Re: ESF Update Plans via Kevmo


Originally Posted by Rbstr View Post
Get rid of the after-burning and limit maneuverability while in hover mode.
Bam, no more hover-fest because it just won't work.
Then we just have a Turn-fest, how boring is that? At least with the 'Hover-fest' we can do some cool things to dodge enemy fire and fight back, instead of just taping the pitch up key to start and end all of your fights.

Originally Posted by Valkar View Post
I understand what you're saying and I appreciate that this is the route the dev team took to basically give us helicopters and jets all rolled into one because making two aircraft just wasn't possible at the time. But i promise you there is not a single VTOL aircraft in the world capable of flying full speed then slowing to a hover mid flight in combat, turning around and shooting at another aircraft chasing.

I think the point of what many of us is saying is that its time dogfighting came down to skill in flying where right now it is about keybinding to pull off a quick brake, reverse thrust and then hovering in a single position as you unload a clip.

Whilst many pilots will say this is skillful and many who do it are certainly excellent pilots and I have a lot of respect for them, I can tell you now that if they removed this, you would see a lot more pilots winning fights and the top gun list would change over night.

Why add joystick support when you just need to press space bar, shift and S right?
There are plenty of games with 'normal' jet type combat, Planetside is the only game that has this unique Vtol style combat.

No there are no real aircraft that can pull off the moves we do in this game, and yes it would probably kill the pilot if attempted in real life, but this is a arcade shooter, not a sim. We don't need to change the flight model, they would have to re work everything since there is no energy management and the maps are tiny with a very low flight ceiling. I honestly don't think the list of aces would change over night even if this change was made, other then the fact more than half of them would quit on the spot. The aircraft are VTOL because thats what they made in PS1, also, VTOL makes more seance 900 years from now anyway. Why would we still be using the same jets then?

as for skill, there is no more skill involved in normal jet fighting than in PS2 Vtol jets. this is just like the short TTK vs long TTK discussion, they both have their ups and downs. your version of a dogfight in this game is very wrong when comparing agenced good pilots, sure doing a barrel roll turn will work on bad pilots, but a good pilot will kill you mid turn if you tried to do the same. Maybe instead of calling this style of flight skill less, you should try learning it and fighting good pilots instead of farming noobs.

Also, who needs joystick support when you just need to hold pitch up and tap S ever so often, right?
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