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Click here to go to the next VIP post in this thread.   Old 2012-03-23, 04:27 AM   [Ignore Me] #1
Malorn
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Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


One of the Reddit questions I had asked was:

How do you plan on addressing the "rich get richer" problem where as an empire gains more territory and resources, they gain more power over the other empires?

Higby's response
this is a tough problem to solve.
Perhaps we, the illustrious PSU community, can assist with some ideas to help address this hard problem.

Part of the reason this is a tough problem is because solving it could render motivation to take territory useless. For example, if we had a welfare system it might not motivate people to take territory, or if we penalized large territory ownership it might motivate an empire to not take too much territory in order to optimize resource gain.

So how can we both reward players for conquest while simultaneously handicapping them so it is still possible for the conquered empires to strike back and regain territory?

What do you think could be done to help solve this problem?
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Old 2012-03-23, 04:29 AM   [Ignore Me] #2
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


I'll copy what I said elsewhere on this topic as a matter of keeping info all in one place.

I think the rich getting richer will balance against the fact that defending their own territory gets harder and harder the more they own. Making it so that capturing territories of a faction that has more territory than everyone else will be quicker than capturing territories of factions with fewer territories would essentially make it impossible to sustain a larger number of territories for any length of time.

If the balance is right on this, it should make the fight do the balancing, as opposed to the resources. They might be the tougher, harder faction due to higher resources, but they still can't defend everything at once with ever quicker capture times.
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Old 2012-03-23, 04:35 AM   [Ignore Me] #3
noxious
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


Just use variable hack times. If your faction owns all but one or two hexes, hacking the last two hexes will take 5 or 10 minutes. Meanwhile, the other guys can hack adjacent hexes in seconds, and they can back hack in a minute or two.
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Old 2012-03-23, 04:40 AM   [Ignore Me] #4
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


Socialism! Your resources are my resources!





Seriously though, I don't know if there's an actual way to combat the rich getting richer, or how big of an issue it will end up being. I'm not entirely sure how resource spending works. I think Higby put it as "Your empire pays you resources out like dividends for having territories". I assume you get more, the more territories you own.

But how does spending work? When you buy a weapon, attachment, vehicle etc. is it a one time unlock? Or do you have to repurchase it everytime? What's the average cost of a weapon/vehicle/attachment? Can you still purchase weapons if you're resource starved with station cash?


Territory capture is one of the features I'm really excited for, but there are a few possible problems it could cause. Perhaps it will work out like PS1, where you beat the shit out of an empire until they're left whimpering in their sanc warpgate, then after everything settles down they start to slowly cost back their conts, or in this case territories. But since territories are a lot more important this time around than bases/continent lock incentives, are people going to be more adamant on keeping territories since it supplies this with resources? Guess we'll have to wait on beta to see how exactly this whole system works and functions.
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Old 2012-03-23, 04:45 AM   [Ignore Me] #5
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


Originally Posted by Skitrel View Post
I'll copy what I said elsewhere on this topic as a matter of keeping info all in one place.

I think the rich getting richer will balance against the fact that defending their own territory gets harder and harder the more they own. Making it so that capturing territories of a faction that has more territory than everyone else will be quicker than capturing territories of factions with fewer territories would essentially make it impossible to sustain a larger number of territories for any length of time.

If the balance is right on this, it should make the fight do the balancing, as opposed to the resources. They might be the tougher, harder faction due to higher resources, but they still can't defend everything at once with ever quicker capture times.
I remember them saying something about that the more adjacent territory hexes you have near you, the faster capture bonus you get for the next territory, as a means to prevent backhacking.

They gave an example of "it will take an empire hacking an enemy empire's hex surrounded by other hexes of that same enemy empire 30 minutes to complete, but it would take the defending empire 30 seconds to resecure."


Of course, this was back when we had seen little to no game footage and Higby was just answering random questions on Reddit, so who knows how much that's changed since.
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Old 2012-03-23, 04:59 AM   [Ignore Me] #6
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


Originally Posted by noxious View Post
Just use variable hack times. If your faction owns all but one or two hexes, hacking the last two hexes will take 5 or 10 minutes. Meanwhile, the other guys can hack adjacent hexes in seconds, and they can back hack in a minute or two.
As I replied to someone in the other thread as well, I doubt the hardest part of defending/capturing bases will be the hack times.

Either you sorta have it in control or you don't. EDIT: To clarify, naturally hack times make a difference and you often get bases resecured if you have time, but the point being that the poor getting poorer might have really hard time getting anywhere near the CC, if the rich getting richer can afford just about anything, while the poor are stuck with grunts.

If the pinned down faction can't even get out of their foothold, a short hack time doesnt help much cos you cant even get to the CC cos they have the man/gear power to stop you.

That said, other ideas I thought about the rich getting richer could be that if you have low pop and/or territory, you could get bonus resources (much like the low pop bonus exp in PS1). That would still require you at least have some resource income, but then again it could just make fighting over territory for the resources "boring", cos the losers still get a good amount of resources just for sucking
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Last edited by Coreldan; 2012-03-23 at 05:09 AM.
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Old 2012-03-23, 05:38 AM   [Ignore Me] #7
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


I would rather the game do nothing at all if you were at a population disadvantage. I know it really sucks being on the loosing team because say VS are at 40% and NC and TR are at 30% each. These situations will require Global Commanders to change up strategies and maybe save resources (in meta game) for another day.

Being at a disadvantage in PS is far better than your team getting "Base-raped" for 700 tickets in BF3, and the loosing teams players are constantly leaving.
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Old 2012-03-23, 06:21 AM   [Ignore Me] #8
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


I SHALL ANSWER THE CALL MALORN AND FIX THIS PROBLEM

Hear me all ye who fear the coming wrath of the imba faction! As there are 4 kinds of resources, we shall simply make it so that once you are down to a significantly lower amount of bases your empire gets "Emergency supplies" in the form of ONE resource! Preferably the resource that makes plain warfare easier but which still doesn't give you any of the many other benefits of the other resources, thus retaining the motivation - beside the obvious fun - of taking over other bases but still not making it so that a faction loses the ability to fight.

It could even function in the same way that a cornered animal bears teeth so that as a faction you'd be rather strong in the tank/air/max department once you are pushed really far, thus motivating the imba faction to turn its attention to the third empire instead of you.

Thank you all for your attention, that's one more problem solved by me. Autographs will be signed exclusively on womens breasts, and any muffin-donations should be sent to my agents office.

Last edited by Bazilx; 2012-03-23 at 06:23 AM.
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Old 2012-03-23, 07:02 AM   [Ignore Me] #9
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


Nanite Systems charge 50% tax rate. The more one empire owns the higher tax they charge because its in their interests to keep the war going....or something.
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Old 2012-03-23, 07:18 AM   [Ignore Me] #10
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


Originally Posted by Jonny View Post
Nanite Systems charge 50% tax rate. The more one empire owns the higher tax they charge because its in their interests to keep the war going....or something.
Ideas like these are probably the simplest solutions, but I think it kills the point of having resources.

Like, why fight for territory to gain resouces when you are gonna be punished for success or alternatively the scrubs will get just as much resources cos they get some bonuses even if they just got steamrolled.
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Old 2012-03-23, 07:25 AM   [Ignore Me] #11
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


Originally Posted by Coreldan View Post
Ideas like these are probably the simplest solutions, but I think it kills the point of having resources.

Like, why fight for territory to gain resouces when you are gonna be punished for success or alternatively the scrubs will get just as much resources cos they get some bonuses even if they just got steamrolled.
Agreed, this is why I say leave it alone. Being the underdog for the week, then having your faction fight back, and take back its stake of land on the weekend will make for more great PlanetSide stories.
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Old 2012-03-23, 07:42 AM   [Ignore Me] #12
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


hm..... if certain resources are physical items that must be transported to key facilities. id say steal them mofo's.

make a certain vehicle resource stock ready (new type of ant? quad? variant sundy?) with its own inventory trunk space.

throw down a transferring node that resources come from (to withdraw and deposit) , which can also be hacked.

hack resource node, why work for it when you can steal them bishes.


get rid of the instant grits direct deposit resource gathering if it exists.

super rich outfits will be prime targets of being bled out by other empires.

to prevent resources from being constantly stolen, take their goods over to the foothold territories for actual permanent depositing.
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Old 2012-03-23, 07:44 AM   [Ignore Me] #13
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


You could say that your faction only has a limited number of "miners" so that the more territory you control the output becomes lower and lower to at some point (50-60% of total territory?) it levels out. and adversely with less territory the output rises.

The faction with the most territory would still get more than the other factions but not hideously more.

Also if a faction gets down to zero territory and resources their empire command could just release their resource reserves until the empire gets back some territory and bases.

Last edited by Vash02; 2012-03-23 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 2012-03-23, 08:07 AM   [Ignore Me] #14
texico
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


I honestly think it will balance itself fairly naturally, because there's 3 empires.

If TR own 70% of the continent, the VS and NC would both normally gang up on them. This is entirely natural - the "CR5's" or whatever the top commanders are will be inclined to attack the strongest empire. Both weaker empires will think this simultaneously. Plus, if TR owned 70% of the continent, it's just naturally more likely that they'll encounter both empires and less likely the two weaker empire's will physically come into contact.

Imo, that should be enough. Because remember, we don't want it to get progressively more difficult to hold on to more territory by a massive amount, because if one empire is winning, they should have the upper hand until another empire is able to overturn them with tactics and hard work.

The progressive difficulty to hold onto territory should only be reasonably subtle.
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Old 2012-03-23, 08:08 AM   [Ignore Me] #15
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Re: Ideas for the "Rich get richer" problem


Before you guys totally flip out about this "problem", it will be easy to see if it really is a problem.

Take all the territory from a faction and see how hard it is to dig yourself out of that hole.
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