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Old 2013-10-25, 12:35 PM   [Ignore Me] #1
HereticusXZ
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The Price is Right - Tanks vs Aircraft


I think this problem probably rests with the inherit flaws in the current Resource system but should the Resource cost of Tanks and Aircraft be so different?

The Empire Specific...
ESF - 250
MBT - 450

The Common Pool...
Galaxy - 350
Liberator - 350

Sunderer - 400
Lightning - 300
Harasser - 300
Flash - 100

More or less my gripe is the difference between MBT and ESF. It's reasonable I would imagine that the Faction Specific vehicles should be the most expensive with how incredibly dangerous they can be in there variety, but why is a ESF so dirt cheap?

It just became curious to me when I was out Prowler sniping near Zurvan Amp Station, I was getting lucky and kept killing the same Scythe over and over again within a hour when typically a ESF has every advantage over a MBT because the tanks turret can't angle high enough to hit a ESF, Aircraft can just hover all day and have free reign against the MBT' engine block. Between Acquisition timer and cheap resources a Pilot can spam there ESF' where a Tanker cannot.

Of course you need to also take into account how long a vehicle can survive between fights, The Empire's Territory Resource supply, Acquisition Timers, Boosts, and Subscription bonuses

This became a little concerning to me when you think about the Ace pilots and Tankers out there.

TL/DR - Why are MBT' and ESF resource prices so different when they both face and share equal lethality and equal threats and are the prices right for the common pool vehicles?

Last edited by HereticusXZ; 2013-10-26 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 2013-10-25, 12:45 PM   [Ignore Me] #2
PredatorFour
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Re: The Price is Right - Tanks vs Aircraft


Well my flash costs just 100 resources and is easily capable of going on similar killstreaks to my scythe and mag, though i hardly ever use the mag now tbh.

I think the prices arn't right though for the vehicles, 450 for a tank seems way too much for what it is imo.

Last edited by PredatorFour; 2013-10-25 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 2013-10-25, 01:18 PM   [Ignore Me] #3
HereticusXZ
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Re: The Price is Right - Tanks vs Aircraft


The value of the vehicle becomes even more apparent when you take into account the importance of Redeploy during Alerts.

When your Squad/Platoon has to constantly redeploy to defend/attack important facilities I often find myself pulling a MBT at one facility to contribute to a fight, and then it becomes a race against time to redeploy to another fight across the continent.

Well tanks aren't fast at all so I'm often asked to abandon my tank and redeploy with everyone else, opting to pull a new tank at the new facility, but I can't pull a new tank because I wasted my resources spawning the one MBT already.

Aircraft can just race across the continent in 60 seconds or less, easy peesy.

Last edited by HereticusXZ; 2013-10-25 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 2013-10-25, 01:24 PM   [Ignore Me] #4
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Re: The Price is Right - Tanks vs Aircraft


Yeh i don't mind ditching my flash and redeploying cos it costs little. It's actually quite disposable costing just 100 and only having to wait a min for a new one, straight after pulling one.

What there should be is a 'deconstruct' option like the original. If you choose to deconstruct, you get a refund of the resources.

Last edited by PredatorFour; 2013-10-25 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 2013-10-25, 01:31 PM   [Ignore Me] #5
HereticusXZ
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Re: The Price is Right - Tanks vs Aircraft


well deconstruct had a pretty nasty flaw early on in PS2, and that was robbing players of vehicle kills (I'm totally guilty of abusing that) so it was rightfully removed.

But I recall that SOE also claimed it would be 'temporarily' removed, fixed, and added back in within a month' time, but of course it got put on the backburner in favor of a great many other things. I would -love- it and quit my complaining on the subject right now if Deconstruct was added back in with the effect of refunding you your resources for the vehicle.

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Old 2013-10-26, 06:00 AM   [Ignore Me] #6
Blynd
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Re: The Price is Right - Tanks vs Aircraft


If agree on the refund but not the whole amount have it as a sliding scale the longer you had the vehicle the less resources you get back so for example

0 - 1 minute - 100% refund
1 - 3 minutes - 75%
3 - 5 minutes - 50%
5 minutes + 25%

I think that would be fair so you always got something back for deconstructing but it would depend on how long you were active.
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Old 2013-10-26, 11:30 AM   [Ignore Me] #7
snafus
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Re: The Price is Right - Tanks vs Aircraft


I think your missing a very important piece of information, and that is what are the two average life spans of the ESF vs MBT. Though I personally don't have the stats I am willing to bet ESF have one of the shortest life spans of a vehicle in the game. Though there are a few select pilots who can stay alive and be lethal for long duration of time the mass majority usually find a tree or cliff face 3 mins into flight. While most tanks I witness can take 3-5 mins just to reach a battle to die in.
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Old 2013-10-26, 06:25 PM   [Ignore Me] #8
Obstruction
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Re: The Price is Right - Tanks vs Aircraft


a couple of things stand out as indicating that the OP doesn't fly very much.

first, a Lib is 350.

second, it's not possible to cross a continent in 60 seconds. more realistically it's 2 to 3 minutes depending which ESF, Frame, and Loadout you mean. and that's just crossing the short way. i could go into the supporting details, but i won't unless i really have to.

this may seem like a nitpick response, and perhaps it is. but these are data the OP is supporting a claim with. i feel it's important to nitpick because this has the stink of ground vs air about it and at the very least we should get the facts correct before proceeding.

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Old 2013-10-26, 08:24 PM   [Ignore Me] #9
HereticusXZ
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Re: The Price is Right - Tanks vs Aircraft


I make no secret of it, I don't fly much, It's not my forte really, but I'm not a stranger to it. I have a pretty heavy amount of certs and Station Cash into all my aircraft.

I think aircraft and tanks suffer from the same amount of threats. Aircraft can crash into trees, mountains, other aircraft and un-rendered structures. Tanks suffer from flipping because of wonky physics on the many trenches and small ridges in the game and can be destroyed from vehicle collision - You haven't spent enough time on the ground if you haven't seen mass tank death because of bad Sunderer or Harasser drivers and crazy physics during a Zerg traffic jam. Or how about Ground vehicles that spawn and then just sit there clogging up the garage, So when the second vehicle spawns and is stuck on the pad because the first won't move, the third kills the second on spawn, so on repeating until the first is finally TKed or moves.

Bad pilots crashing within or just outside of the warpgate with the average pilot at least knowing how to hover attack vs the aces who know how to strafe in low and get out before AA recognizes there under attack.

Bad tankers just pull to taxi and forget it, Average tankers just sit back and turtle with the cannon at long range, the Aces roll up as siege breakers destroying a enemy defensive line then move on before the enemy gets a chance to swing around there AV weapons.

Again, I think Aircraft and Tanks suffer from the same number of threats.

Your right, Lib was 350, my bad. we had Amerish when I first posted, Fixed.

I usually fly a Scout Mossie when I am in the air: Racer 3, Stealth, Scout Radar w/ Banshee and Fuel Tanks. Fly nose down and use that ascension thruster for a extra umpf (which I assume most pilots know the nose down trick) I can fly across the continent in roughly 60 seconds, give or take enemy positions. If you fly with Hover your 5kph slower so let's tak on roughly extra 15-30 seconds to be generous, that leaves just Dogfighting unaccounted for.

Libs and Gals regardless of the Performance slot will always be slower then the ESF but still grossly faster then ground vehicles because that -is- what Aircraft do.

My entire point isn't to ignite a Ground v Air debate (though in retrospec the thread name implys otherwise FFFFF), far from. My point is the Resource costs of the ESF and MBT are pretty nastily skewed especially when you compare those two's prices to all the common pool stuff.

The ESF and MBT are arguably the most lethal vehicles in the game because of there faction specific variety's. By all means they should both probably be reasonably costly because of the threat they bring to the field but why is it one is dirt cheap to spam and the other is the most expensive vehicle in the entire game?

I would imagine the Sunderer would be the most expensive because of AMS and Gate Shield Diffuser, It's the most important vehicle in the game. The ability to act as a mobile fortified spawn with turrets and to get a full squad inside a facility' defenses is a pretty dangerous thing.

Or even the Galaxy because of it's sheer size, and ability to just air-drop a entire squad with dead on precision anywhere it pleases is often the preferred tactic of many Outfits to break a enemies defense, Why isn't something so large expensive to build?

The prices between vehicles just seem broken to me. /shrug

TL/DR - Not a Ground v Air debate, Yes I'm familiar with flying and all that it entails and not just a angry tanker, The point is the faction vehicle PRICE not Air v Ground stat balance.

Last edited by HereticusXZ; 2013-10-26 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 2013-10-26, 08:38 PM   [Ignore Me] #10
HereticusXZ
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Re: The Price is Right - Tanks vs Aircraft


Honestly I suspect ESF' are dirt cheap as a result of the time when AA (Burster range/damage, Lock-On range being greater then 500m) was stupidly OP and MBT's are so expensive in a effort to stop Zergs from just Tank spamming to win.

Well AA has been toned down to something reasonably comfortable to fly in with new weapon mechanics and we have the new AV Engineer turrets, new MAX AV weapons, Tank Mines, and C4 all of which can be squad dropped ontop of or behind the armor on a whim with squad beacons and SL redeploy and we have new base designs in the form of Continent overhauls, Lattice, Esamire Walls and the still long awaited Amerish overhaul.

So why are the prices still skewed as leftovers of darker times?

Last edited by HereticusXZ; 2013-10-26 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 2013-10-26, 11:42 PM   [Ignore Me] #11
snafus
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Re: The Price is Right - Tanks vs Aircraft


Unless we actually have the data as I said before this debate will be a whole lot of opinions and speculation. I for one would love cheaper vehicles all around as that is my prefered play style making me biased. But I personally feel the risk reward for ESF and tanks are very different as player skill is far more demanding on the ESF aspect. But without actual average life spans of each vehicle I have a hard time giving a quality response to your question Herecticus.
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Old 2013-10-27, 12:37 AM   [Ignore Me] #12
HereticusXZ
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Re: The Price is Right - Tanks vs Aircraft


Fair enough Snafu, I wholeheartedly agree that we need the actual stats.

In all reality I honestly don't expect any price change on any of the vehicles from this thread, what with the grossly long list of other stuff this is probably either never going to be addressed or atleast will be loooong down the line when something with substance comes out about the "new" Resource System with the ANT.
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